Attn: All UK models and producers

[Andy Mann]

Interesting and well thought out and as I said, I see the good intentions of an organisation like AIM in the States, but surely something as simple as a phone call on the day in this country (where the industry is not so self contained as it is in L.A) to assertain the validity of the models certificate from the Clinic would suffice, and be less of a logistical nightmare than what you suggest, or is what I suggest too simple?

After all, wouldn't it be a lot easier for a Producer, if he had any concerns over a performer to draw up a list of all G.U.M and Private Clinics in the U.K, keep a record of all the telephone numbers and verify the test results over the phone on the day? I know that clinics are more than happy to do this as I already stated to you..what is wrong with this suggestion Donkey, and surely all performers and producers would be happy with this wouldn't they?

[TheDonkeyWork]

Andy Mann wrote:

> Interesting and well thought out and as I said, I see the good
> intentions of an organisation like AIM in the States, but
> surely something as simple as a phone call on the day in this
> country (where the industry is not so self contained as it is
> in L.A) to assertain the validity of the models certificate
> from the Clinic would suffice, and be less of a logistical
> nightmare than what you suggest, or is what I suggest too
> simple?


Your method proves the veracity of the paperwork - but does it log who has worked with who and does it provide a one-stop-shop to isolating those that have been put at risk from a potential outbreak? And wouldn;t it be easier for a producer to make a single phonecall to check the certs for all the performers rather than having to phone round perhaps 4 clinics... and wouldn;t the additional admin on those clinics be an issue - not to mention the Data Protection Issues? The use of Unique ID number and a single phonecall is so much more simple and has added benefit.

> After all, wouldn't it be a lot easier for a Producer, if he
> had any concerns over a performer to draw up a list of all
> G.U.M and Private Clinics in the U.K, keep a record of all the
> telephone numbers and verify the test results over the phone on
> the day? I know that clinics are more than happy to do this as
> I already stated to you..what is wrong with this suggestion
> Donkey, and surely all performers and producers would be happy
> with this wouldn't they?

I'm sure they would - but all that donkey work (no pun intended) could be done in a single phonecall - and, as stated earlier - with several added benefits too - not least the log of who is working with who! The icing on the cake of the AIM service!

[KazB]

I'm all for it. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for the greater good.

man I've been watching too much Buffy.

[Andy Mann]

Donkey,

Stop trying to speak for everyone as you are just one voice and there are others who have raised the same concerns as I have, please see above for my suggestion to this problem, (10-01-08 16:12), which is obviously far too simple and effective for you to accept, as you still haven't told me what is wrong with it?

[TheDonkeyWork]

Forgive me - I've cut and pasted this from a post earlier in the thread;

ESSENTIALLY, there si NO REQUIREMENT FOR THE ORGANSIATION TO HAVE ANY OF YOUR PERONAL DETAILS!!!!!!!!

You get your tests done at the clinic...

You hand them your ID card with your Unique performers number.

The clinic contacts the agency and quotes yor unique perosnal number - they say "10203040506 - his tests are all clear for X, Y, Z" - you walk away witht he hard copy fo your cert.

The only thing the agency has is YOUR UNIQUE ID NUMBER. They dont kno who the fook you are - you're a number...

You go to a shoot - you produce your certs as normal... but the producer - being a switche don, safety conscious giy - recognising his need to abide by H&S legisaltion and wanting to keep a reputation as an all round good guy - he phones the central agency anyway and quotes the number on your ID card - "I have 10203040506 here, can you tell me if his certa are all up to date" - the agency replies "Ah, yes... 10203040506 - his tests were done on X and he's clear for X,Y,Z" - producer says "well 10203040506 is working with 1234567 and 7654321 today...". The agency log this and thats it.

All ref through the central database has been by a unique number that only you carry on your ID card.

Now if you next go for your tests and you test positive for something - the clinic calls the agency and says "10203040506 has tested positive for X - who has he worked with in the last 3 months.... and they'll have a long list of numbers and which clinics they are with. The clinics are then given the list of numbers and they then arrange to see those people who have been in contact wih you.... If they try to work in that period - a good producer, having cslled up the agency would know that they had worked with you and they were in quarantine so should send them home...

Do you not see ow it could work????? The agency need never havehad a record of anyones name....

[TheDonkeyWork]

have another look.

1. Yes - its too simplistic.

2. Additional admin on the clinics

3. So much more work for a producer to phone around them all

4. Does not keep track of who is working with who.

5. Significant DPA issues with a 3rd party accessing information regardig veracity of certs by telephone.

6. The unique ID number and a single telephone call solves all the above AND adds in a method of keeping track of folk and putting the lid rapidly on an outbreak should one occur.

[Andy Mann]

DonkeyWork said:

The only thing the agency has is YOUR UNIQUE ID NUMBER. They dont know who the fook you are - you're a number...

So you are saying that this agency would not want you to register personal information in order to obtain your unique ID number? So in effect anyone can walk into this agency off the street, say they want an ID card and that is it? I am just trying to see your vision Donkey and raising my concerns over it as a performer, not attacking your obvious good intentions, so less of the sarcy comments aimed at me mate..

[Harry Hardon]

Whilst the idea of a Central Database is very sensible and I'm all in favour of everyone taking care of their health, sexual and otherwise, but I'm wondering if practically it will work in the UK?

We all know that HIV can be passed on not just by unprotected full penetration but also by oral sex, open sores, cuts and so forth.

So let us consider the following, I'm not going to name names here so please excuse my vagueness.

1 : Use of Amateurs in Films
Currently in the UK, a number of production companies do shoots with untested males performing oral sex with professional models. Some of these shoots are free and others the amateur males pay.

I can't see these producers using a database to check the guys as the guys simply won't be on the database.

Will models turn down these shoots? I doubt it as everyone has bills to pay and many of the top names have already done these kind of shoots.

2 : Working with Amateur Film Makers
A number of models provide PoV services with amateur photographers. This might only be oral unprotected sexual services but HIV can still be passed via oral sex - even though the risk is very low.

Again, the models would have to check with the photographer he / she is on the database and then decide if they work with them. If the photographer is not on the database, there would be a 3 month window of infection.

3 : Models Providing Extra Services
There are also a number of models (male and female) who provide sexual services outside of the adult film arena. This again is with condoms for full penetration but again unprotected oral sex will increase the risks

4 : General Fun
Let's not forget the number of people who enjoy casual sex upon a weekend either with their partner, fun buddies, one night stand and so forth.


If the database is to be used, all of these issues will have to be addressed as a database is only as good as the data it holds and the validity of that data.


Perhaps a different solutions could be that all the GUM clinics provide UKAP with details of know performers who have tested positive for HIV so that a list can be monitored though this would need to be set up in such a way that name changes don't corrupt the system.

Just some thoughts.

HH

[TheDonkeyWork]

Well, we're clearly not "mates" are we - but I'll overlook that...

Yes - potentially anyone could register - but what would be the point?

The way I see it is the ID cards could be issued by your CLINIC. The agency send cards out - blank cards - you go for your first test - take a passport photo - the Health Advisor checks your identity with you dics, sticks on the photo, phones the agency;

"I have new model... he's male and he is ID number 10203040506"

"Got that - Male, 10203040506..."

Logged - you're on the system. You're a number at the clinic (and a name- as you already are!) but you're just a number at the central agency.

Simple...

[one eyed jack]

Andy the system you suggest of calling the Medilab doesnt work if you shoot on a Sunday and need an answer now with a model that has travelled to get toyu three hours already.

The present system isnt working that well at all if there is constantly an outbreak of an std and this seems more to be the case the past four years now which indicates the present system is breaking down badly.

I agree with you that it should be the sole responsibility of the performer to ensure they have their documents with them at all times but (and this is why I havent shot much pro performer on pro performer stuff) I was present on a shoot on Sunday where the model picked up the wrong paperwork but had the last two years worth of certs in her folder.

Technically I should have put my cameras away and cancelled the shoot there and then but the male performer made the judgement call and the shoot was still on.

Now if this was online all i would have to do is put in my password and bam! I can see it on line there and then.

As for other personal details, we wouldnt need it.

yes there will be plenty questions arising about how it can be verified against fakes but all this will be taken into consideration.

So far it looks like 50% of you are not interested. If it hasnt got the backing of everyone then I cant see it working at all.

We are not interested in being some kind of hit squad to those who cross over into escorting. itis a simple service of allowing your stds every month online is all.

Nothing more. Nothing less. I dont see the need for anyhting more than that.

it only takes one person to really bring this industry to its knees and mark my words if we ever get a situation like Daryl James you can bet both butt cheeks that the shit will hit the fan.

Look at the panic it caused with UK performers back then, almost in bits because they shagged someone who shagged someone who worked with Daryl.

The UK has nothing in place to limit the damage that AIM managed to. It is within your own interest to make this happen. I dont have to give a hoot. I dont try and shag models on any of my shoots.

All Im saying is that this scheme has worked for the great big porn machine of the USA why cant it work for our little cottage industry?

WE DO NOT NEED PERSONAL DETAILS. JUST YOUR TESTS, TO MAKE IT WORK.

Hackers must be very bored to want to hackj into a site to see peoples tests when they let th eindustry look at it when they work anyway.