Iran with nuclear weapons-Is it safe?

[Officer Dibble]

I fear I'm a creature of the night, diplo. My ranting powers at their zenith within the wee small hours - though I normally retire to my chamber before the cock crows thrice.

Officer Dibble

[jimslip]

"Christian fundamentalists are divis too. However, they are not quite as dangerous, as our western culture places more value on life than do those in the Middle East and Africa. We also seem to be much more rational (open to reason and debate) than many in the Middle East. Therefore western Christian fundamentalists would feel slightly more constrained about pressing the button. Unless they were truly insane they could not justify themselves simply by saying ?It is the will of the Lord?.

I believe these lunatics are behind the Bush administration and are itching to push the button, they are just more cunning than other fundamentalists. They are motivated my money and greed, which requires a more subtle dynamic, in creating a situation where they can wage war.

[jimslip]

[Officer Dibble]

Agreed. Christian fundamentalists are loonies to. But, as I pointed out earlier, they are not quite so dangerous as middle eastern or third world loonies, as our western culture, it's value system and the moral framework that they have grown up in provides a psychological inhibitor that prevents them from engaging in the apocalyptic extermination of whole nations. Inhibitions about killing other people are quite weak or non-existent in many third world or Middle Eastern countries, life is cheap - as we witness daily on the news.

On issues that really matter I don't believe there is any significant Christian Fundamentalist influence over the Whitehouse. Oh sure, President Bush respectfully pays lip service to their beliefs, but he (reassuringly) just strikes me as any other cynical self-serving politician. He may go to church but he's not a true believer. He just needs their money and influence to back his presidency. So he tosses them an inconsequential bone every once in a while just to keep them sweet. If he were really in the thrall of the Christian right he would have outlawed porn by now, wouldn?t he? Because that would be a dam sight easier to do than taking a nation to war in the face of global political opposition, don?t ya' think?


"They are motivated my money and greed,"

Aren?t we all, Jim? Aren?t we all? Wheyhey!



Officer Dibble

[philylad13]

Top link Jimslip, the Chossudovsky article was top, here are a few quotes for folks, the 1st from former UN weapons inspector Scott Ritter:

"6) Consensus Building: Media propaganda on the need to intervene in Iran has been stepped up, with daily reports on how Iran constitutes a threat to peace and global security."

The most applciable quote comes from Chossudovsky, when he said: "The citizenry is galvanized into supporting the rulers, who are "committed to their safety and well-being". Through media disinformation, war is given a humanitarian mandate." & "What is needed is to reveal the true face of the American Empire and the underlying criminalization of US foreign policy, which uses the "war on terrorism" and the threat of Al Qaeda to galvanize public opinion in support of a global war agenda.".

That was the main point of my original post, the Government decide that Iran is next on the Quest for Oil, sorry I mean War on Terrorism, lol. Most people wouldn't agree with War if our politicians said, 'we are going to spend ?5 billion of your taxes, which will kill our soldiers and an unaccounted for number of Iraqis, and increase peoples' hatred for us in the Middle East, and bring zero benefit to the man in the street (be it Iraq, Iran or the UK)', not many people would support that, so we have to start banging on about Iran's nuclear ambitions, let them have Nuclear power, just make sure there is some International body in there, to monitor things. Iran has already said it will offer the US construction contracts, what style! The US & UK are just finding an excuse to go to War, and after Iraq, people taking our politicians statements as more than a pinch of salt is unbelievable.

In regards to Bruce Barnard's response, I wasn't suggesting that Israel would bomb Israel, it was just the principle, the question was just, would you support an Iranian bombing of Israel? & would you support an Isreali bombing of Iran? I seriously doubt anyone would bomb Israel, no country would bomb the 5th largest Nuclear power in the world, that being Israel, the UK is in 6th according to the Chossudovsky article.

A couple of comments re: Officer Dibble, at last a new insult, lol, I have these opinions, not because I read the Guardian (which I don't), or because I'm Middle-class (which I don't think I am, but Officer Dibble is sure of, because the working-class are only meant to care about Big Brother and nothing meaningful), or because I'm a member of Al-Qaeda (which I'm not), now it is because I don't get my end-away enough, maybe if I got enough, I would just be concerned with myself and not what our Governments do in other countries, the problems will only go away in my head, they certainly won't for those in the middle of it.

Officer Dibble stated: "Well, we all knew the Iraqis didn't have WMD ? that is after our chaps had spent a while rummaging round in their metaphorical cupboards. Even the politicians seemed a bit surprised." Our elected-leaders knew before they stepped foot in Iraq, everything had been destroyed due to inspections and in early 2001, Colin Powell and Condeleeza Rice, both said that Iraq doesn't have WMDs, so in summary, the US Government decided they were going to invade Iraq, and went about creating a climate whereby people belief that Iraq are a threat and needs to be dealt with, the same thing is happening with Iran.

In regards to another comment: "We only elected you because we fancied a walk down to the polling booth, before Eastenders came on, and while we were there we thought - Well, we're here now. So, I guess we might as well stick a random cross on a piece of paper. Yes, that?s the only reason you're in Downing St.". Sadly, this is the state of our democracy, once every 4 or 5 years we go down to the local Youth Club with a load of verbal diarrhoea in our heads to put an X against someones name, and this is our democracy, and if we complain, the response is you elected us so for the next 4 years shut your mouth, and the best you can do is either not vote or vote Lib Dem, what a Democracy!

Next, in regards to our use of Chemical weapons: "Personally, I don't give a hoot. What I want to know is are they any good at eliminating wild eyed, murdering, insurgents?". My comment again was the principle, not only do oru politicians condemn Saddam for using Chemical weapons against his own people, which we sold him, to bring, 'Freedom' to the Iraqi people we use Chemical Weapons, and anyone that takes up arms against an invasding army is called an Insurgent, what else do you expect to happen when you bomb the living fuck out of a country, a big hug?

A comment I agree with: "I think it might be prudent for everyone within missile distance to be at least mildly concerned. Don?t you agree? I mean, irrational, mad eyed, religious nutters, plus atomic bombs, is normally considered a heady brew." Correct, so make sure that their are International monitors, but what our Governments are looking for a reason to bomb Iran, and this is the perfect pretext.

Next: "Indeed, being rational, mature, westerners, we have a responsibility to protect the planet from those would might not be as responsible, mature or competent as us groovy people." I doubt I would call what the US & UK Governments have done in Iraq any of these, the policy of, 'do as we say, otherwise we will bomb you' is none of these.

2nd to last comment to respond to: "Have you noticed how we all sleep easily in our beds aware that Israel has nuclear weapons? Why do you think that is? Could it be that we unconsciously recognize these positive Israeli qualities and don?t even consider the possibility that they might unleash them on us in a moment of wild-eyed, backward, religious lunacy? But when you float the idea of Syria or Iran getting the bomb, then immediately we experience a stab of terror through our hearts. Israel + atomic bombs no problem (much like France). Islamic fundamentalists + atomic bombs = start digging the shelters." The reason that people are happy/ ambivilant for the US, UK France, Russia, China & Israel to have Nukes and not Iran, is entirely due to the Propaganda, which is being stepped-up, if there were articles about France, showing pictures about France's Nuclear capacity and how close they are to London, people would soon be afraid of France, it is the perception people are given by the media of the situation, which makes people think this way, not some weird ambivilance to other countries having them and not Iran.

How does being Anti-War make me a member of Al-Qaeda, Al-Qaeda would love another war in Iran, people wanting to join Al-Qaeda soared thanks to the Iraq War, and another with Iran will just compound matters.

Also to quote Doug Stanhope & a bit of David Cross, "you cannot have a War on Terrorism, it's like having a War on Jealousy, it's a concept, at no point, the Government will go, 'there we are, we got all the Terrorists, everybody loves us again'", every bomb we are dropping is tearing a family apart and increasing Al-Qaeda's numbers, the London bombings were because of the Iraq War, the Insurgency is because of the Iraq War, and now we are being lead into a War with Iran, and people are still swallowing our Governments lies.

Thank you for the last bit of advice Officer Dibble, I thought I was working-class, but because I don't subscribe to popular culture (fashion, celeb-culture, reality TV, etc) as they try to distract people from things that matter, makes me Middle-class, it is nice to know that all I have to do, is to join, 'Madame Minge's house of ill repute' and get my Nuts wet, will have me back in the working-class club, I didn't realise it was so easy to go from working-class to middle-class and back again, maybe its a kind of a Working-Class Loyalty card system, I get 10 points everytime I visit Madame Minge, another 10 for watching Big Brother, a further 10 for knowing who Shayne Ward is, but get a penalty of 25 for being Anti-War, lol. Is it having an opinion on War, which makes me Middle-Class, or is it just an insult you throw out for those that are againstw war, because if the Working-Class are meant to just be concerned with Big Brother they wouldn't have an opinion at all.

Lastly, people can be working-class and against the Government & War, have a quick peek at: http://www.londonclasswar.org/intro_english.htm.
The Governments of this world are against Working-Class people in any country, and pointing this out does not make me Middle-class.

Anyways, this forum is healthy outlet for angst, I quite like our discussions Officer Dibble, I doubt either of us are going to alter our opinions/ perceptions, but at least those reading this will get more of a varied opinion, because a person's opinion can be just as skewed in favour or against if you read The Guardian or The Sun.

To end this post, I'll just quote a Pennywise song, Time Marches On:

"Time has changed what's going on
You can only regress as time marches on
down with the system enougth of the lies
you can only realise if you open up your eyes
I don't know if we're ever gonna see
tell me what's gone wrong with soceity
got no future this is no life for me
and I don't know just what went wrong all that I know
It's gone on too long got no future
there is no life for me and not for me
look ahead what is our fate
to make the same mistakes we made yesterday
or do we try to save ourselves
or sit back and laugh as it all goes to hell"

Philylad13.
E-mailing from the UK, and not Tehran, or in an Al-Qaeda Internet Cafe.

[Pervert]

The first one was being ironic----the second took him seriously.

It's hard to see any real solution. All the stuff going on in the world just keeps stoking up the hate boiler and feeding the dangerous people. Country/organisation A bombs country B, causing anger there but also anger in countries C, D and E, who feel they might be next. Money is funnelled to organisation Z, which attacks countries B, C, D and E and fuelling anger against anyone related to A.

Nope, sorry, can't see this ending soon.

[Officer Dibble]

Oh dear. We seem to be going round in circles now, philylad. I've addressed all the points you have made - I trust in a clear, concise, and entertaining fashion. But here you are again, repeating the same points once more. You don't seem to have taken on board or engaged with much of anything I've previously said. Anyhow, I'm not going bore everyone by reiterating all my previous responses, just take them as read.

However, I will try and condense it all down, before we loose our way. You say - The government is lying to us and has all sorts of devious agendas in respect of foreign wars and beating up on ?fuzzy wuzzies?. I say ? Hey, so what? We don?t care. So long as we?ve got petrol in our tanks, bread on the supermarket shelf and ?X-Factor? on TV, we?re sorted. You?re wasting your time trying to spread this doubt and discontent malarkey. This is the age of apathy, after all.

Interesting how you regard being labelled middleclass as ?an insult? and then rush to disabuse us of such a notion, citing a passion for trash TV in a cack-handed attempt to affirm your working class credentials. But why such discomfiture at being labelled ?middleclass?? It?s not that bad, is it?

A clue to your discomfort (as if I hadn?t already guessed) is to be found at the website you nonchalantly suggest we have a gander at It turns out to be a loony anarchist site, whose stated aim is to first destabilise society, employing ?propaganda? and ?active participation? and then, ultimately, the violent overthrow of capitalism. I quote - ?Direct action is necessary against the individuals and institutions who stand in the way of this. There is no alternative. Violence is a necessary part of the Class War?.

In the place of capitalism you mean to establish a Marxist/Trotskyist Utopia, where workers, gay boys, lezzies, fuzzy wuzzies and ?wimmin? attired in glorious grey proletarian overalls, will stride, arm in arm, into a magnificent sunset of fraternity, tractor factories, and two room apartment blocks. Hail the revolution, comrades! The worker?s paradise is at hand! Well, it?s attempting offer, philylad. You certainly know how to throw a party, and no mistake. Now, don?t think me ungrateful and all that, but I think I?ll just stick with my expensive sports car, nice gaff in the country, Moet & Chandon, and a posse of big titted birds at my beck and call, if it?s all the same? I?m a man of simple tastes.

But haven?t we heard all this revolution cobblers before? Where was it now? ?Ah yes, Russia, 1917, that was it. Didn?t pan out I hear. A major boo, boo. Apparently, it all ended in tears?

So, anyhow, I expect you and your Class War comrades meet up in the back room of ?The Anarchist?s Arms?, in Notting Hill, every Tuesday evening at 8.00 pm? No doubt you?ll each order a pint of Tetley?s Bitter - a libation that sits more comfortably with your affirmation of proletarian brotherhood - unlike, (as you see it) your usual Perrier Water or Beaujolais. No doubt the comrades will have elected you as their ?Propaganda in Chief? on account of your internet savvy, astuteness, and unparalleled cunning? And, come the revolution, when your new model army of class warriors seize power, you confidently expect to be installed as ?Minister For Truth?. That is your destiny, to take your place amongst the greats - Joseph Gorbels, Lavrenty Beria and Iraq?s ?Comical Ali?.

I expect you normally conclude your weekly meetings with rousing cheers of ?Up the Workers!? ?Death To Capitalists!? and ?Freedom for Tooting!? Then, as the landlady turfs you out, you remember that you?ve stepped out without your credit cards. Never mind, Nokia to the rescue ? ?I say, mummsy. Would you mind awfully? But I?m gassed out, the last bus has gone, I?ve got Tarquin and Julian with me (both veterans of Cancun) and I?ve invited them back for a cibatia and Parma ham supper?. OK, so you?ll be in the Range Rover and not the Bentley? ?Right... OK, twenty minutes then?.


Officer Dibble

[Deuce Bigolo]

I agree Caractacus

I Would add,while Males hold all the power,violence & war will reign supreme
The token women in Politics is just lip service

I wonder if any one has ever thought of running an all women party
50 percent of the population would be up for the offering
Might make a few of the backroom boys very nervous if it ever happened

Sadly those that get to the top tend to be your classical testosterone filled males who's think peace can be obtained with the use of violence.

Lets us not forget Politicians us just doing the bidding of those that bankroll the parties.All their concerned with is PROFIT

So bring on the wars and lets get congress to write a few blank cheques

cheers
B....OZ