Blasphemy and the Quran

[Sam Slater]

Heard a few things on the news last night about blasphemy in Islam. They never really go into detail so thought I'd at least show forumites what the Quran says, and why I think.

The trouble with the Quran is that it jumps around a lot with it's narrative so it is not always clear on what, as a Muslim, you are required to do. Of course, all religious books are written in similar ways (often just outright contradiction in the case of the Bible) so they appeal to as many people as possible.

It starts:

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33.54
Whether you reveal a thing or conceal it, indeed Allah is ever, of all things, Knowing.

33.55
There is no blame upon women concerning their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons or their women or those their right hands possess. And fear Allah . Indeed Allah is ever, over all things, Witness.

33.56
Indeed, Allah confers blessing upon the Prophet, and His angels [ask Him to do so]. O you who have believed, ask [ Allah to confer] blessing upon him and ask [ Allah to grant him] peace.

33.57
Indeed, those who abuse Allah and His Messenger - Allah has cursed them in this world and the Hereafter and prepared for them a humiliating punishment.

33.58
And those who harm believing men and believing women for [something] other than what they have earned have certainly born upon themselves a slander and manifest sin.

33.59
O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

33.60
If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is disease and those who spread rumors in al-Madinah do not cease, We will surely incite you against them; then they will not remain your neighbors therein except for a little.

033.061
Accursed wherever they are found, [being] seized and massacred completely.



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I included the few passages before (mainly focussed on how women should dress in the presence of men) to show context and how the narrative jumps from one topic to the next, back to the original topic (033.059) and then back again.

The last verse is obviously the problematic one and it is here that many scholars argue about who it is referring to. Is it saying women who don't dress modestly should be slain or those who annoy believers, Allah or the prophet? Or is it both?

Apologists say that there is no mention of punishment for blasphemy in the Quran and so any punishments handed out have nothing to do with Islam. That is a cop out given the verses above. While it does not mention 'blasphemy' it does mention annoying Allah, the prophet or believers.......which could be anything when you think about it. Again, religion has to be vague to appeal to as many people as it can. This, to me, is a problem. Unlike the Bible, the Quran was passed on oratorically, which may account for the narrative jumping around. Things need to be made clearer so there is no misinterpretation (whatever the correct interpretation is only Allah could know, but a general consensus would be handy for everyone......if a little unrealistic).

Now on to the Hadith. Unlike the Quran, I haven't read the Hadith. All I know is that it is a collection of stories about the life and times of the prophet and to be used as a guide in everyday situations and life. Think of when Christians say, "now what would Jesus do?" when faced with some situation or other....well, Muslims can turn to the Hadith. If they don't find answers in the Quran they can use the prophet as an example.

There is a specific story in the Hadith about Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, a Jewish poet who mocked the prophet. Here is what the Hadith says:

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, "That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you." On that, Kab said, "By Allah, you will get tired of him!" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food." (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, "Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me." Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, "What do you want?" Ka'b replied, "Mortgage your women to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?" Ka'b said, "Then mortgage your sons to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people's saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you." Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab's foster brother, Abu Na'ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, "Where are you going at this time?" Kab replied, "None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na'ila have come." His wife said, "I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka'b said. "They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed." Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, "When Ka'b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head." Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka'b replied. "I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume." Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka'b "Will you allow me to smell your head?" Ka'b said, "Yes." Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka'b again, "Will you let me (smell your head)?" Ka'b said, "Yes." When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), "Get at him!" So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf."

and another

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 241:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud:

Once the Prophet was offering prayers at the Ka'ba. Abu Jahl was sitting with some of his companions. One of them said to the others, "Who amongst you will bring the abdominal contents (intestines, etc.) of a camel of Bani so and so and put it on the back of Muhammad, when he prostrates?" The most unfortunate of them got up and brought it. He waited till the Prophet prostrated and then placed it on his back between his shoulders. I was watching but could not do any thing. I wish I had some people with me to hold out against them. They started laughing and falling on one another. Allah's Apostle was in prostration and he did not lift his head up till Fatima (Prophet's daughter) came and threw that (camel's abdominal contents) away from his back. He raised his head and said thrice, "O Allah! Punish Quraish." So it was hard for Abu Jahl and his companions when the Prophet invoked Allah against them as they had a conviction that the prayers and invocations were accepted in this city (Mecca). The Prophet said, "O Allah! Punish Abu Jahl, 'Utba bin Rabi'a, Shaiba bin Rabi'a, Al-Walid bin 'Utba, Umaiya bin Khalaf, and 'Uqba bin Al Mu'it (and he mentioned the seventh whose name I cannot recall). By Allah in Whose Hands my life is, I saw the dead bodies of those persons who were counted by Allah's Apostle in the Qalib (one of the wells) of Badr.



So, there are two stories where the prophet was either criticised or mocked and all ended up dead. The message in the Hadith here is that mocking/criticising the prophet can mean death.

Of course, there are other verses and stories that call for patience with unbelievers and blasphemers which apologists point to, but that's not the point. The point is that there is direct justification for the murder of those cartoonists yesterday within Islam. The fact most Muslims wouldn't think of doing it isn't credit to the religion.......they're just nice people in spite of their religion. But if you're not nice you can use it.......and more dangerously, get more sympathy amongst otherwise moderate believers than you normally would as long as you can find that justification within a shared religion. It is the passages above that the Sharia points to when making up Islamic law. The religion is the root cause.......not the only cause, but the root.

[Arginald Valleywater]

Nothing 9mm hollow point ammo won't cure.

[David Johnson]

Deuteronomy 13:6-9New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6 ?If your brother, your mother?s son, or your son or daughter, or the wife [a]you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, ?Let us go and serve other gods? (whom neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end), 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him. 9 But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

With Christianity as with Islam it is the way the way that the holy book is interpreted by religious followers, is it not?

[Arginald Valleywater]

Problem is the brainwashed won't have read the Quran. They are so thick as to do as they are told. If the Imam told them to go home, set fire to their dad and dry bum the cat they would. Remember the Satanic Verses issue? Muslim leaders told their flocks of sheep to protest without even reading it.
Free speech is at threat and we are doing fuck all about it.

[David Johnson]

"If the Imam told them to go home, set fire to their dad and dry bum the cat they would. Remember the Satanic Verses issue? Muslim leaders told their flocks of sheep to protest without even reading it."

Well that was the situation in medieval Britain. Go and visit York Minister and think what an enormous, overpowering building must have had on the wretched poor that lived in the streets around. The building and its representatives must have seemed all powerful and beyond question.

That is the situation that many followers of radical Islam in the likes of Syria and Afghanistan are in. Ignorant, brainwashed and desperate for a regular meal.

As for "doing fuck all about it" , surely not!

[Sam Slater]

Don't know why David is bringing the Old Testament into this.

It's not like I've ever said "If Christians start killing apostates, I won't blame the religion."

I would. I've more than once blamed Christianity for the overall European attitude to Jews which, in my view, was a big contributing factor in why ordinary Germans adopted (or at least didn't fight) Nazism. Once you tell billions of people some nasty Jews killed your prophet it's not surprising a fare few will dislike said Jews.

My argument has always been, if it says something bad, it's bad.

If people interpret it in a good way somehow then good on them - but the religion is still bad.

It's like RoddersUK coming on here spouting off about queers and shirtlifters. That would mean if there were enough on here who interpreted his homophobia as harmless and full of poetic rhetoric that meant the exact opposite, his homophobia is fine and dandy and we shouldn't call him out on it. I say bollocks to that.

[David Johnson]

"It's like RoddersUK coming on here spouting off about queers and shirtlifters. That would mean if there were enough on here who interpreted his homophobia as harmless and full of poetic rhetoric that meant the exact opposite, his homophobia is fine and dandy and we shouldn't call him out on it. I say bollocks to that."

Hardly a convincing analogy. Let's be serious for a moment. The point I am making is that both Christianity and Islam have holy books written aeons ago when life was incomparably different to what it is now either for the majority of Christians or the majority of Islam.

So the issue then is how to change the way in which some believers are led to take the Christian Holy Book and the Islamic Holy Book as verbatim. I believe that the starting point is not to go on about hatred for those religions because there are many liberal, fair members of both religions.

[Essex Lad]

Arginald Valleywater wrote:

> Problem is the brainwashed won't have read the Quran.

Not true ? all practising Muslims read the Koran.

[Ron T. Storm]

A very sensible post. Factual. Thank you Sam.

[Essex Lad]

Sam Slater wrote:

>
> It's not like I've ever said "If Christians start killing
> apostates, I won't blame the religion."
>
> I would. I've more than once blamed Christianity for the
> overall European attitude to Jews which, in my view, was a big
> contributing factor in why ordinary Germans adopted (or at
> least didn't fight) Nazism. Once you tell billions of people
> some nasty Jews killed your prophet it's not surprising a fare
> few will dislike said Jews.
>
No one has ever said that because Jesus wasn't a prophet. He is the Son of God. (Having said that in Islam, He is a prophet along with Moses, Noah, et al.)