9/11 documentary

[strictlybroadband]

Five years on (almost), varied conspiracy theories are coalescing into some serious questions about inconsistencies in the 9/11 story. If you have an hour to kill, this documentary is well put together and unmissable:

The evidence is building that, just like Vietnam, the so-called "war on terror" was initiated by the Americans attacking themselves.

[Fred]

I've not seen the film SB, so will wait before passing judgement on it. Some background information here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loose_Change_(video)

For those who haven't seen it yet, check out the cooler analysis of "The Power of Nightmares"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_nightmares

My personal view is that this theory that the Americans attacked themselves on 9/11 is BS, comforting BS. It's too neat by far, but I admit it appeals to many people on both sides of the Atlantic. That the neocons exploited 9/11 to implement their own agenda, there's no doubt. We certainly don't know everything that happened, all sides are guilty of duplicity and spin. But it's always amazing to me when self-proclaimed "sceptics" suddenly abandon all doubt to embrace an all-encompassing theory, so long as it panders to their ideology in some way.

BTW, exactly how did the Americans "attack themselves" in Vietnam? Are you saying the VC were a front for the CIA or what?

[strictlybroadband]

Fred wrote:

> I've not seen the film SB, so will wait before passing
> judgement on it.

That's how I've felt... the film is very compelling and the first thing I've seen on this subject that can stand up. I've doubted for a long time that a plane hit the Pentagon (especially since the US government has refused to release video of this) or that the world trade centre towers could fall after a single hit from a plane each, but I'm the first to admit I don't have the evidence or expertise to back up those doubts. This film does - plus a lot more.

> BTW, exactly how did the Americans "attack themselves" in
> Vietnam? Are you saying the VC were a front for the CIA or
> what?

John Pilger, the investigative reporter has written extensively on this. Here's a quote from a CIA agent he spoke to:

"Black propaganda was when the US Government spoke in the voice of the enemy, and there is a very famous example. In 1965 the CIA loaded up a junk, a North Vietnamese junk, with communist weapons ? the Agency maintains communist arsenals in the United States and around the world. They floated this junk off the coast of Central Vietnam. Then they shot it up and made it look like a fire fight had taken place. Then they brought in the American press and the international press and said, ?Here?s the evidence that the North Vietnamese are invading South Vietnam.? Based on this evidence two Marine battalion landing teams went into Danang and a week after that the American air force began regular bombing of North Vietnam."

Article here:

[Fred]

Fair enough, there's a long history of dirty tricks and black propaganda. But it's a quantum leap to go from shooting up a junk in the South China Sea to flying planes into buildings and murdering thousands of your own civilians. Not to talk of pods and cruise missiles and so on.

Apart from anything else, it would require an unbelievably high level of competence that the current US government so patently lack. No, don't tell me - they're just "pretending" to lose the war in Iraq.

I'll check out the film, but will treat it with the same scepticism I would treat any source claiming to present the "truth", whether it's the Pentagon or the 9/11 conspiracy crowd.

If in doubt, Occam's razor.

[strictlybroadband]

Fred wrote:

> Apart from anything else, it would require an unbelievably high
> level of competence that the current US government so patently
> lack. No, don't tell me - they're just "pretending" to lose the
> war in Iraq.

Never underestimate the Americans. It suits most of us to view them as buffoons with a buffoon President, but the CIA and Pentagon are ruthlessly efficient intelligence/military machines. they're fucking up in Iraq because they *are* shit at understanding strategy and foreign cultures/politics. They're not shit at creating mayhem - they're very good at it.

> I'll check out the film, but will treat it with the same
> scepticism I would treat any source claiming to present the
> "truth", whether it's the Pentagon or the 9/11 conspiracy
> crowd.

Please be sceptical - there's no other way to watch something like this. I'd welcome your views once you've watched it.

[Robches]

I think we are referring to the Gulf of Tonkin incident in August 1964. The Americans sent two destroyers into the Tonkin Gulf, which was claimed by North Vietnam out to a 12 mile limit. The Americans said that North Vietnamese territorial waters only extended to 3 miles, so they were in international waters.

The North Vietnamese do seem to have sent out torpedo boats, and there was a minor clash. Later, American ships reported they were under attack, but there is doubt as whether this was real, or a misreading of radar images in rough seas.

Be that as it may, it led to the US Senate passing the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution by a vote of 98-2 iirc, which in effect gave President Johnson carte balnche to wage the Vietnam War. And it came about because of a clash which the Americans had sought out and made sure would happen. I'm not saying anything like that happened on 9/11, but the idea that America could engineer an attack on itself to facilitate a war cannot be dismissed as a conspiracy theory, because it happened, and the Gulf of Tonkin incident was not the only time this has happened.

[diplodocus]

they have released the cctv footage from the Pentagon plane strike, some shots of them appeared in the Times last week

[dynatech]

Looking at this from the Islamic perspective doesn't make much sense either - if they did it to "teach America a lesson" then it has backfired spectacularly - it has gifted the yanks the ultimate levels of power they have always dreamed about. If any muslim thinks they won anything out of these attacks, they are totally deluded - they simply strengthened their opponents hold over the world.
That clown that was convicted of being involved with 9/11 shouted as he was sentenced "America - You Have Lost!" What a prick, nothing could be further from the truth.

[strictlybroadband]

diplodocus wrote:

> they have released the cctv footage from the Pentagon plane
> strike, some shots of them appeared in the Times last week

I saw that - in fact it's mentioned in the film I posted. But they only released 5 frames of video footage and none of them show a plane. And apparently other video evidence exists and the US govt refuses to publish. Surely they have one frame showing a large plane heading towards the building?

As the documantary points out, the hole in the Pentagon was far too small for a plane to have gone through. The military also claims the jet engines were "vapourised" which is pure nonsense.

[strictlybroadband]

dynatech wrote:

> Looking at this from the Islamic perspective doesn't make much
> sense either - if they did it to "teach America a lesson" then
> it has backfired spectacularly - it has gifted the yanks the
> ultimate levels of power they have always dreamed about. If any
> muslim thinks they won anything out of these attacks, they are
> totally deluded - they simply strengthened their opponents hold
> over the world.
> That clown that was convicted of being involved with 9/11
> shouted as he was sentenced "America - You Have Lost!" What a
> prick, nothing could be further from the truth.

You're wrong - this attack was in the interests of extremists: both Islamic and Christian neocons. Endless war is in somebody's interest - just not yours or mine. Bin laden (if he was behind it) knew what he was doing - provoking an attack on Afghanistan and Iraq. The losers were most Muslims in the region, and freedom in the West.

The winners are the extremists who are vastly stronger than they were 5 years ago, plus the handful of American billionaires who have made billions more from this chaos. There's an article in today's Guardian about how the Taliban are becoming stronger than ever. Afghan people who hated them when they ruled Afghanistan now support them to drive the occupiers from their land.

You & I have lost. Bin laden and Dick Cheney are winners.