Disillusioned with the Industry

[davepaterson]

Emily wrote:
.

"To be fair, Dave, it's a matter of context
As a rule, any photographer who can't control himself and has to ask a model whether there might be sex on the cards is, in my book, unprofessional. I don't honestly care if there are 50,000 models who escort to 50 models who don't, the fact is that a photo shoot is a photo shoot is a photo shoot. If you're going to hire an escort, contact one. There are plenty available. There's no excuse for contacting some unsuspecting model and asking her if she's also a prostitute.

And I would hope that any well-adjusted, normal human being, if he really 'fancied the pants' off a model would at least have the decency to ask a model out for a drink or two, maybe dinner and so on, if he really wanted to get busy with her. But, you know, only after he had spent the shoot behaving like a gentleman.

Because you know what? This might be a sex-based industry, and there might be a lot of nudity and penetration and what have you, but at the end of the day we're all still supposed to be decent civilised human beings, and just because a minority of models escort (yes, it is a minority) doesn't mean that we should all become cynical and jaded about the whole thing."

............................................
............................................

Emily, you have made some very good points there....and on reflection i think you are correct - a photo shoot is a photo shoot is a photo shoot, and business shouldnt mix with other pleasures on that count......I stand corrected!
Your reasonings in your posts on this thread are sound in that - when you are employed as an adult performer you should be treated as such and not as a potential prostitute. I dont think anybody can argue with that.....and youve certainly made me think a little about seeing things from the other point of view.

But (you just knew there would be a but didnt you lol)

But - as with many things there are two side to a coin.
I think The Brutal Truth has just made an excellent observation about things being a mater of justification.

You have said you have no issue with escorting/prostitution as such - and thats cool - but if you are really honest im sure you would agree, that privately you wouldnt want to be thought of as one - not just because you arent one - but also because of the social stigma and your own private reasons. The same with a page 3 model. She might not slag you off for doing toy insertions or hard girl/girl, but privately she is likely to think........"well i would never do that".............so what one person thinks is okay is not to another, its all relative - but as the Brutal Truth says, its also down to justification.

We all want to justify our own conduct - but at the end of the day - getting ones kit off is part of the sex industry, and as such it carries a little social stigma to it.

My point is not so much that producers should have the right to ask whether a girl is available for other services (i have been put right on that one), but that models in general should BE CONSISTANT regarding what levels they are advertising they work up to. As i said before, its very confusing when you see a model listing up to continental only - and then discover she has done bits and here doing stronger stuff. Of course models retain the right to change their minds - to vary their levels of work from time to time- but they surely have some responsibility to be honest and upfront.

You are obviously ethically sound Emily, and im sure many others are too. However there are also MANY others who are not. Dodgy producers get bad press and quite right too. Newbie producers are often viewed with suspicion, and i guess thats natural too. But models who do bareback escorting - and then class themselves as "adult professionals" are doing the rest of you a disservice. You say escorts models are in the "minority" but i would have to dissagree. Ive not used the services of any escort models myself, but having looked at many of the websites on the net - then i would guess there are many more than you might think. Okay it might still be a minority - but if you are talking 20 - 30% as i suspect then you are dealing with a substantial percentage.

There is a website listed on here - that promotes porno models for hire(im assuming i cannot post the url).........i discovered just last week that this website has a sister website advertising most of the same girls (very very well known and established names) as offering escort services.

Nothing wrong with that from my point of view - but when you have so many of your fellow models - who sell sex - sorry but the terminology for that is prostitution..........then its kinda rich when some girls (not you) go on about pervy producers pestering them. ....(when many of these girls offer these same services on other websites)


Im not justifying these producers here - im simply stating that there is a lot of double standards amongst many porn models - and that as time carries on , and as i suspect more and more girls take up the option of moonlighting as both models/ and escorts then the lines will get muddied even further.

[hannahXfan]

I left the industry in 1999, after spending a good 18mths in the business, it had its highs and its lows.
To be honest I enjoyed my time in the industry, I met some fantastic people who I still keep in touch with. Yes I also experianced some down sides, but what ever career you choose there are always going to be negatives as well as positives. But 8yrs on after leaving the buisness I have no regrets, and I feel I am a good role model for any body who leaves the business that there is a life after porn. I now run a successful business not related in anyway to the adult entertainment industry.
I know who I am, and I know what I once was, they are two completely different people, but I have embraced my past and now accept it.
I have to admit when I left the industry I felt isolated as I felt people would judge me, but I had to accept I choose a career in porn, and to be honest now does it really matter what anyone thinks. The industry gets slated so much but I am proud that I can embrace my past and I am proud that I have found the strength to become a successful role model for other actresses who leave the business.
I was lucky to have a very good business woman mentor in my porn days,(kirsten Halborg) who kept me level headed, she taught me alot, and she inspired me to become a business woman in my own right. And I will always respect Kirsten for that.
8 yrs on, I'm a strong independant woman, a business woman, a mother. But I never deny who I was, and thats the important thing accepting yourself.
Anyway I hope this makes sense as this thread is so long but I just wanted to say my view that there is a positive after porn, and to have no regrets - just accept it. Because if you don't it will eat away at you and you will never move forward.
I hope others can look up to me as an inspiration, that there is a life after porn.
And I have no regrets about any of it! - its part of who I was - and that strength has made me the sucess I am today.

lots of hugs and positive thoughts Hannah xxx

[hannahXfan]

mmm i think i over repeated myself - a long day!! very tired but you get my drift! no regrets ha ha lol hannah xxx

[Ron T. Storm]

Hello hannanXfan,

I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your post. To move on and embrace your past is wonderful.

I love the industry and have a soft spot for the industry.

I will reveal now that a certain model and the emails she sent to me was part of the reason for me stopping/ taking a break from the industry. She did a no show on me and then was quite nasty in an email to me.

She knows who she is - she did upset me a lot.

But hey - must move on.

[Emily Cartwright]

Alice In Blunderland wrote:

> Emily Cartwright wrote:
>
>
> > There is a difference. There is a huge difference. If you're
> > not prepared to accept that there is then I can't argue with
> > you.
>
> I cannot accept it because you have not explained it because
> you cannot the fact somebody is paying you to have sex, it does
> not matter if it is Joe Blow off the street or Dirty Bob the
> cameraman- you are still being paid to perform real sexual
> acts.
>

I have already pointed out the fact that I peform sex acts for money. What you're unwilling to accept is the fact that that does not automatically make me a prostitute.

>
> > I'm not claiming to be any better than prostitutes or
> escorts,
> > to clarify, but if you knew anything about how pornography is
> > made you would understand that there is a reason why people
> > refer to it as 'performing'. It's not an act of casual sex
> for
> > anyone involved.
>
>
> So what is it then? if a girl has sex on camera with somebody
> and gets paid to do it and that person is not somebody she is
> in love with- casual sex I think, can I call myself a performer
> if I hire an escort and fuck her on Webcam and post it online?
>

That confirms what I thought. You have no idea what it's like for a male stud, do you. How would you like it if you hired an escort and the whole time you were screwing her there were two other men in the room observing your performance, telling you when to get hard, telling you what position to screw her in, telling you you have to go for longer, stopping you every five minutes to fiddle with the lighting and move a load of gear around, and telling you when to have an orgasm if you can actually manage one after that? Unless you're able to maintain an erection for four hours in front of a cameraman and a girl who isn't even pretending to be interested in you (she's only paid to pretend when the camera's on, you see), come on command whether you're ready or not, and do the whole thing several times over whether you're still horny or not, you can't call yourself a male performer.

>
> > Sorry, but bullshit. You're ASSUMING that me wearing a short
> > skirt and heels and doing sexy dancing means I'm trying to
> > broadcast that I'm available. It doesn't. It just means I
> like
> > wearing those clothes and dancing like that. It doesn't give
> > men the right to treat me with any less respect than they
> would
> > a woman wearing jeans and a sweater.
>
>
> Ok so why not go out wearing a pair of trousers, ordinary shoes
> etc, this is like the old I buy that lingerie to make myself
> feel good but well my boyfriend/husband really likes it deal,
> most women go out dressed like that to find men so it is
> somewhat harsh to expect men to know you are the 1 or 2 per
> cent that are not only unavailable but object to even being
> asked, a man is generally going to go for a woman in that
> environment who looks available which would be short skirt,
> heels, skimpy top, lots of make up etc rather than a woman in
> slacks and a sweater.
>

Because I don't WANT to go out wearing slacks and a sweater. I shouldn't have to change MY behaviour because some men don't know how to control their dicks, and suggesting I should is plainly misogynistic. And in your deluded mind maybe it's 1 or 2 per cent who aren't dressed like that to get guys, in the real world it's the large majority of girls who aren't dressed like that to get guys. Sorry to shatter your dreams.

>
> > And why not? Why should I not be offended when someone asks
> me
> > what I find to be an offensive question? If I advertise
> myself
> > as a model, only a model and nothing but a model, why should
> I
> > not be offended when someone asks me if I'm a prostitute?
>
>
> Because you could quite easily state when you are working with
> somebody new before you begin or even when you are booking the
> shoot this is what I will do and this is what I will not, it
> would save you being outraged and him probably feeling awkward
> or that there is hostility- lots of models do stuff on the
> side so again it is expecting the man to be a mind reader.
>

Again, as above. I shouldn't have to put a disclaimer saying I DO NOT ESCORT on all of my email correspondence because a tiny minority of photographers are completely unprofessional.

>
> > And as I already said, just because this is a sex-related
> > industry doesn't give people the right to proposition all the
> > girls. Even for models who do b/g work, all that means is
> that
> > they will have sex with professional male performers on
> camera
> > - there is NO implication at any point that they'll fuck
> anyone
> > else, and there's no implication that they'll do it
> off-camera.
>
>
> Again this is a very naive attitude, especially when you see
> well known models advertising their wares on websites where
> they will let any guy have sex with them for a price.
>

No it's not a naive attitude. 99.9% of the people I deal with in the industry don't assume I'm an escort just because I'm a porn model. That 0.1% of people are naive because they think that adult model = prostitute. In the majority of cases they're not even professionals, they're amateurs with exactly the same broad misconceptions that you appear to have.

>
> > Look, this is my job, I've been doing it for a long time, and
> > the fact is that what I know to be true is that photographers
> > who go around asking models for extras are generally a bunch
> of
> > unprofessional sleazebags who I wouldn't work with even if
> they
> > left their dicks at home. At this point considering the
> > statements that you've made I don't really expect you to
> > understand because you seem to think that if a girl works in
> > porn she should expect to fend off sexual advances all the
> > time, and that's supposedly okay because men have
> > 'uncontrollable urges' or whatever.
>
>
> Hey it is going to happen in your line of work all you have to
> do is say no, if he persists then it is wrong, don't forget
> models do sexual acts to make money, if a photographer suggests
> sexual acts to make more money where is the surprise in that?
> this is a bit like Princess Diana, Kate Middleton etc crying
> about the press- hey Diana was always happy to use them when
> she had a cause to promote or to put her spin on things, if you
> marry or date the future king you are going to get publicity
> and if you don't want that publicity then don't get involved
> with them, if you get naked and perform sexual acts then you
> are going to get interest from many photographers, if you go to
> a club dressed in next to nothing and dance around in a sexy
> manner then men are going to show you attention.
>

No, again you're going from the assumption that because I work in porn I should be happy to put up with any sleaze that people feel like throwing at me. People being complete unprofessional arseholes should not be one of the natural risks of ANY job, whether it's being a celebrity and people making shit up about your private life to sell papers, or being a porn actress and people hassling you with requests for sexual favours.

>
>
> > So maybe I'm the only one (although experience tells me that
> > most models feel this way) but I'm always offended when
> people
> > use photoshoots as an excuse to ask me for sex, and I will
> only
> > work with the thankfully large majority of photographers who
> > are entirely capable of ignoring their sexual thoughts when
> > they're working, as completely impossible as that may seem to
> > you.
>
>
> Then like I say instead of letting it happen then moaning about
> it- do the sensible thing and make it clear when you are
> booking it or when you arrive what you will and will not do, if
> the guy then asks you have every right to be offended and yes
> he is an asshole but if he has had girls eager to please him
> then he is bound to be asking every girl who turns up, that is
> just human nature.


No. Why should I insult legitimate photographers by pointing out that I don't do escorting, when the thought hadn't even crossed their mind. And I do wish you'd stop talking about 'human nature' like that. Guys getting an uncontrollable hardon the minute there's a whiff of sex in the air is if anything a sign of sexual immaturity, not human nature. Basic intelligence dictates that if you're booking a girl to shoot pornography you should be concentrating on the task at hand, not thinking about what you could do with her afterwards if she'll let you.


In short I really wish you'd stop acting like this is my fault for being 'naive' and unwilling to change my behaviour to accommodate the few idiots who don't know the difference between an adult actress and a prostitute. They are in the minority, and that's because they are in the wrong. They should learn how to behave properly. In the meantime I will be avoiding them.

[Mr Mark]

Very well said Emily.

In my relatively short time in this wonderful / bonkers industry i've had the pleasure of filming Emily, Alexis Silver, Tallulah and many others, doing things that under normal circumstances you'd combust watching, BUT, when you're shooting things change.

1) You're worried about light, positioning, length of scene, model performance etc

2) As soon as your eye is behind the viewfinder, or you're watching a camcorder screen, everything becomes a little removed from reality - you're certainly not perving away, as you're too busy concentrating (at least if you're aiming for a quality product, and shooting for all the right reasons, i.e. to make a product that sells, rather than just using the shoot as an expensive excuse for a gawp)...

Do I not get turned on? - i'd have to be gay not to.

Imagine Alexis Silver asking you to pour liquid soap over her ample breasts in the shower, and then asking you to rub it in (happy days!)... but mentally you're kind of seperated from reality - you know this is just fantasy for the camera.

As soon as the scene ends, you're back to normal, having a cuppa or a fag, and a chat and a laugh about normal mundane stuff, before picking up the camera again - you know, as does the model/performer that you are both creating something for the viewer to get off on, and that's what you're both putting the effort towards.

You'd have to be a bit of a gimp to proposition a beautiful lady like (for example) Alexis, or Emily for a handjob when the shoot ends, just because of the persona she has on camera. That indicates a certain immaturity in not realising the difference between fantasy and real life.

Seperately, but kind of related, there was a discussion on one of the model forums a little while ago, about those of us who filmed porn not even being able to watch our own material in the same way (if you get my meaning) as we would anyone elses product. You flashback to the shoot, the effort involved, the technical aspects, your banter with the model/performer - all of this makes it very hard to get aroused by what you've shot. You know you've created something hot, and feedback from others reafirms this, but you feel almost incestuous using your own material as a punter would.

Just a personal insight.