At last! Someone who can see beyond the hype and bullshit out there - even the big comms companies in the states agree that the current infrastructure just isnt ready for this yet. Sounds good but the reality is somwhat different............
IPTV
Re: IPTV
Twingo you spend to much time reading web-sites, go and see this stuff in test. They are even planning to go to cinema using SDSL and download. My current Hi-def is between 8 and 12 mb........ The box is 1080. Every big company in America is going this way why do you suppose you can download all the latest movies on Walmart web-sites. I believe April is roll out of consumer box, with wi-fi its called AVEC less than ?100. It has full web browsing on it, email etc. And if anyone wants to see it is on our stand working
Phil McC
Phil McC
"Stop laughing and tell me it's big"
Live or on demand streaming Hi-def quality programing <http://www.goxxxtv.com> all British Girls at a £1 per pull.
Live or on demand streaming Hi-def quality programing <http://www.goxxxtv.com> all British Girls at a £1 per pull.
Re: IPTV
Its not that i spend too much time reading websites, its that i actually own a lot of HD stuff (Media/Projectors/TV Screens/Players) and i know what the quality should be like. On my 720P Hitachi PX-T100 Projector anything encoded at 2.5Mbps looks like junk.
If your current hidef stuff is between 8mbps and 12mbps then thats good, at least you are delivering content at an appropriate bandwidth , it's just i dont see how your physicaly going to send that bandwidth and not have major issues on the client side, as the networks are just not good enough for it, without major stuttering and most ISP would simply kick you/throttle your line after so much watching IPTV (due to the bandwidth issues) which would result in a complete waste as well. I also dont see how it can work out cost wise, as i have several colocated servers worldwide which use considerable amounts of bandwidth, i know how much it costs. Use the "premium" bandwidth and your going to go out of business, use the "cheap/cogenco etc" bandwidth and your going to have unhappy customers.
As for some of your other comments. Walmart are not delivering a streaming/IPTV system, so in there view it simply doesnt need a network as resilient which is needed for IPTV, they simply let the customer download the movie in WMV and play it once its downloaded. Thats a massive difference to IPTV and the way it works and again its only 480p (although obviously they can upgrade it in the future)
As for cinema and SDSL thats not streaming either, there simply using them lines to download the content to there storage systems days/weeks before they play it. If you think HiDef at 1080p needs serious bandwidth, then you should see what 2048p and 4096p films need.....there is simply no line in the UK which can handle this and be cost effective. Even a 100Mbps line on a 4096p movie, might have problems if the stream wasnt perfect, ie. no loss packets.
Delivering content at anything less than the same or slightly less bandwidth than what every other station gives out (BBC HD, SKY HD, etc), is insulting to customers who buy your equipment, its taking advantage of there limited knowledge on the subject and simply taking them for a ride where they believe there getting HD (just because its in the name). You may not be in charge of this and you may simply be selling the hardware and showing your own shows, but the customers should be aware of this before they buy the product.
Again, i know this sounds like im knocking your IPTV or your business sense, im not, i just think its too early to market. Knowing the full side of digital imaging/network after doing the job for almost 10 years, i know whats doable and not......and i know that 1080p over broadband is not doable, not at the bandwidth it requires, not on a big scale.
Whilst im here, is there a trailer of your content availabe in 1080p? I think having a trailer and showing the quality might actually start to wow people a little more, i tried your site at xstreamheat, it doesnt work with firefox (i hate swapping to iexplorer) and in iexplorer it shows up in a 320x200 (i guess box)
If your current hidef stuff is between 8mbps and 12mbps then thats good, at least you are delivering content at an appropriate bandwidth , it's just i dont see how your physicaly going to send that bandwidth and not have major issues on the client side, as the networks are just not good enough for it, without major stuttering and most ISP would simply kick you/throttle your line after so much watching IPTV (due to the bandwidth issues) which would result in a complete waste as well. I also dont see how it can work out cost wise, as i have several colocated servers worldwide which use considerable amounts of bandwidth, i know how much it costs. Use the "premium" bandwidth and your going to go out of business, use the "cheap/cogenco etc" bandwidth and your going to have unhappy customers.
As for some of your other comments. Walmart are not delivering a streaming/IPTV system, so in there view it simply doesnt need a network as resilient which is needed for IPTV, they simply let the customer download the movie in WMV and play it once its downloaded. Thats a massive difference to IPTV and the way it works and again its only 480p (although obviously they can upgrade it in the future)
As for cinema and SDSL thats not streaming either, there simply using them lines to download the content to there storage systems days/weeks before they play it. If you think HiDef at 1080p needs serious bandwidth, then you should see what 2048p and 4096p films need.....there is simply no line in the UK which can handle this and be cost effective. Even a 100Mbps line on a 4096p movie, might have problems if the stream wasnt perfect, ie. no loss packets.
Delivering content at anything less than the same or slightly less bandwidth than what every other station gives out (BBC HD, SKY HD, etc), is insulting to customers who buy your equipment, its taking advantage of there limited knowledge on the subject and simply taking them for a ride where they believe there getting HD (just because its in the name). You may not be in charge of this and you may simply be selling the hardware and showing your own shows, but the customers should be aware of this before they buy the product.
Again, i know this sounds like im knocking your IPTV or your business sense, im not, i just think its too early to market. Knowing the full side of digital imaging/network after doing the job for almost 10 years, i know whats doable and not......and i know that 1080p over broadband is not doable, not at the bandwidth it requires, not on a big scale.
Whilst im here, is there a trailer of your content availabe in 1080p? I think having a trailer and showing the quality might actually start to wow people a little more, i tried your site at xstreamheat, it doesnt work with firefox (i hate swapping to iexplorer) and in iexplorer it shows up in a 320x200 (i guess box)
Re: IPTV
Just got back from the IPTV-forum where I have a stand beside the other IPTV experts. When I said I have seen Hi-Def at 2mb It was actually 1.8mb it is a different compression technique right now it is fragile but it worked. I am sure you are aware the key is in the codec, look at Mpeg 2 compaired to wmv, do you think the companies are stopping development, they are not. I agree that streeming Hi-Def at 8mb right now would be a waste of time thats why it will be downloaded at the start, but the boxes are 1080 so thats the way we are going. As for bandwidth, I don't pay bandwith I am an ISP I pay IP transit and I can sell you bandwidth cheaper than most ISP can buy it for and I mean the big guys, Think about how much traffic goes over my network most of which is adult coz I am adult friendly. The box upscales so even ordinary TV looks better, one of the boxes has DVB so ready for Hi-Def DVB if they can agree. Hi-def guy's do my nut in my mate Tom Funk is mental about hi-def he has a room full of hard-drives feeding a quad net-card to a set-top box, ending up on a 72 inch Hi-def TV. You can get radiation burns from it all. Truth is I am more concerned with sending Health and Education into Malawi than streaming Hi-Def. IPTV has more real use than Hi-Def, like start your own TV channel for a few grand, Today we have been offered a deal to take 100 Indian channels to our box, now thats a big market.
Phil McC
Phil McC
"Stop laughing and tell me it's big"
Live or on demand streaming Hi-def quality programing <http://www.goxxxtv.com> all British Girls at a £1 per pull.
Live or on demand streaming Hi-def quality programing <http://www.goxxxtv.com> all British Girls at a £1 per pull.
Re: IPTV
Couple of last comments before i finish on this thread.
I agree completely with you about the codec point, i would say that from a codec point of view that H264/AVC is probably twice as efficient as MPEG2, so giving almost the same picture quality at half the bandwidth. Microsoft's VC-1/WMV9 is not too far off H264/AVC, its not got the same efficiency, but its not far behind also.
However H264/AVC represents the pinnacle of video codecs right now, there is no new codec and there wont be any near future codecs which offer the same jump from MPEG2 to H264/AVC, so the codec you speak about at 1.8mbps is going to be no more efficient than H264/AVC would be at 2mbps at the very best. Its simply not good enough for HD delivery at that bitrate, also as your aware the sigma chips in your IPTV boxes support a set amount of codecs and do not break from the "norm" so use of any fragile/special codec is not going to happen on the hardware, unless you do a redesign, or ship your first boxes without the support and add it later, screwing old customers.
8Mbits is certainly doable for 720p and 1080i content and will give a very good quality picture, so im happy your delivering at that, i dont think my 10mbps line here (NTL)will allow me to watch it, without hiccups however there upgrading me in june to 20mbps.
So a couple of questions, now that ive knocked your product so much
.
1. After paying for the box at 100GBP, how much does it cost me to watch the channels? Are they free (im guessing not). Subscription based, or PPV based on the length of a film etc. For shows is there the option to store them and watch them again in 24 hours for free (like other providers offer)
2. For content i pay for, who handles the money? Is it one company for all transactions, or is it seperate companies based off whoevers content im purchasing. The same if i have problems, can i contact 1 company or is it whoever is delivering the stream?
3. Are all broadcasts done in HD, or are the majority done in SD and upscaled? I noticed the 1mbps is the recommended for high quality viewing (although you know my thoughts on this already)
4. Whats the avg bitrate of your SD streams and your HD 720p/1080p streams. What size line do i need to be able to watch these without any severe dropouts. For most people watching a film or something with a 2-3 second pause only 2-3 times in a movie is unexceptable.
5. Does the box allow any amount of "real" buffering to prevent dropouts (like 1-2 minutes of buffering?)
6. Does the box allow me to stream my files from a pc (like a UPNP Media server), if it doesnt, then i would seriously look into getting it done, i would pay for the box on that basis alone (so would many others i know)
7. Is harder than R18 content available? Obviously if the stream is comming from outside the UK, then surely it is, although its questionable if its being streamed to my TV in the UK. Almost the same as if i goto a PPV adult streaming site and watch a movie in that it doesnt need to follow R18 guidelines. I ask this as in your first post you say "get 18R direct to your TV"
8. How many channels are available on "launch day"
Thanks for any answers you might give!
I agree completely with you about the codec point, i would say that from a codec point of view that H264/AVC is probably twice as efficient as MPEG2, so giving almost the same picture quality at half the bandwidth. Microsoft's VC-1/WMV9 is not too far off H264/AVC, its not got the same efficiency, but its not far behind also.
However H264/AVC represents the pinnacle of video codecs right now, there is no new codec and there wont be any near future codecs which offer the same jump from MPEG2 to H264/AVC, so the codec you speak about at 1.8mbps is going to be no more efficient than H264/AVC would be at 2mbps at the very best. Its simply not good enough for HD delivery at that bitrate, also as your aware the sigma chips in your IPTV boxes support a set amount of codecs and do not break from the "norm" so use of any fragile/special codec is not going to happen on the hardware, unless you do a redesign, or ship your first boxes without the support and add it later, screwing old customers.
8Mbits is certainly doable for 720p and 1080i content and will give a very good quality picture, so im happy your delivering at that, i dont think my 10mbps line here (NTL)will allow me to watch it, without hiccups however there upgrading me in june to 20mbps.
So a couple of questions, now that ive knocked your product so much
.1. After paying for the box at 100GBP, how much does it cost me to watch the channels? Are they free (im guessing not). Subscription based, or PPV based on the length of a film etc. For shows is there the option to store them and watch them again in 24 hours for free (like other providers offer)
2. For content i pay for, who handles the money? Is it one company for all transactions, or is it seperate companies based off whoevers content im purchasing. The same if i have problems, can i contact 1 company or is it whoever is delivering the stream?
3. Are all broadcasts done in HD, or are the majority done in SD and upscaled? I noticed the 1mbps is the recommended for high quality viewing (although you know my thoughts on this already)
4. Whats the avg bitrate of your SD streams and your HD 720p/1080p streams. What size line do i need to be able to watch these without any severe dropouts. For most people watching a film or something with a 2-3 second pause only 2-3 times in a movie is unexceptable.
5. Does the box allow any amount of "real" buffering to prevent dropouts (like 1-2 minutes of buffering?)
6. Does the box allow me to stream my files from a pc (like a UPNP Media server), if it doesnt, then i would seriously look into getting it done, i would pay for the box on that basis alone (so would many others i know)
7. Is harder than R18 content available? Obviously if the stream is comming from outside the UK, then surely it is, although its questionable if its being streamed to my TV in the UK. Almost the same as if i goto a PPV adult streaming site and watch a movie in that it doesnt need to follow R18 guidelines. I ask this as in your first post you say "get 18R direct to your TV"
8. How many channels are available on "launch day"
Thanks for any answers you might give!