18 U.S.C. 2257 - A Solution For Website Operators.

[lucifers_film_maker]

What people do not realise is that much of the UK website business is hosted on US servers, or servers owned by US companies.

Some will close, others will be illegal, you could take the kids to Disneyland and end up doing 5 years on the chain gang. Sounds stupid, go to www.avn.com and see the panic in the US Industry.

Ignorance of the law is no defence in America.

18 U.S.C. 2257 has caused a lot of people problems, making their US sites potential legal nightmares.

I have had a few private messages from American friends asking if I know of offshore hosting facilities.

I know how hard it is to find European hosts who are not owned by US companies and therefore not subject to US law. It took me several months to find one.

Our sites are all in Holland and our Hosting service is happy to chat to anyone who needs to move their pay sites off-shore.

If you need this kind of help contact nich@lyrical.co.uk

He speaks English and may be able to help.

Tony Savage

European Gothic Ltd
Bedford
England

www.european-gothic.co.uk
tony@european-gothic.co.uk

[rgb]

(4) Producer does not include persons whose activities relating to the visual depiction of actual sexually explicit conduct are limited to the following:

(i) Photo or film processing, including digitization of previously existing visual depictions, as part of a commercial enterprise, with no other commercial interest in the sexually explicit material, printing, and video duplicators;


(ii) Mere distribution;

(iii) Any activity, other than those activities identified in
paragraphs (c) (1) and (2) of this section, that does not involve the hiring, contracting for, managing, or otherwise arranging for the participation of the depicted performers;



(iv) A provider of web-hosting services who does not, and
reasonably cannot, manage the sexually explicit content of the computer site or service; or

(v) A provider of an electronic communication service or remote computing service who does not, and reasonably cannot, manage the sexually explicit content of the computer site or service.


I read this to mean that web hosting companies are not "producers" and therefore not under threat from this change in US legislation, and therefore UK sites hosted in the US are not under threat. I seem to be the only person around here who reads it this way..so I'd like to know why I'm wrong...

rgb

[Joe A]

Tony

To put Rgb's points basically.....

Hosts for those of us outside the US are not a problem. We can host over there at much cheaper rates than anyone in the Netherlands has come up with yet. I've looked at least half a dozen hosts there and not one can compare to US prices, so why should we move when we have no need to.

You'd be better off posting on US based webmaster forums as they have the problems not us...

It's also been spoken about here:

[tas]

you are not alone, that is the way I understood it and several other webmasters (US as well as UK) I have spoken to regarding this agree.

[Paul L]

This whole 2257 problem is a minefield, I know I don't understand it at all (although I totally agree with the above that a host is not classed as a producer and so is exempt), but I think we all need proper legal clarification on where we stand as a UK citizen hosting in the US.

I certainly don't want to move my site outside the US, we use over 15TB of transfer a month, and to source that outside the US would be a fortune (the only good thing about the current exchange rate at the mo!!).

So why don't we work as a group to get the correct legal definitions and implications on this, not from talking to other webmasters and taking comments from forums as gospel, but from lawyers that know 2257 and the industry.

Please read this thread and get in contact if you are interested.

Cheers

Paul.

[Paul L]

Might have helped if I had linked to the thread - here it is

[lucifers_film_maker]

The simple point you have all missed is that by being on a US hoast, you then become subject to the American laws, if you are not on a US server, your site is not subject to the law, thus.

If you are on a US server, you have to have an acceptablle keeper of records and give access to the FBI 20 hours a week at no notice to see your records.

I could read you chapter and verse on what else this demands of you, I have been interviewed twice for ove an hour by AVN.com in the last two days.

Read it all back and then remember you have all agreed aove that it is not the host that is responsible.

IT IS YOU!

[Joe A]

Tony

What did they interview you about as you are a film producer first and most of us are webmasters first ? Did they interview you as a UK resident asking your opinion or what ?

None of us are refusing to show the DOJ (not FBI) our records... We are stating that under UK law we cannot publish details of models without their written permission. Hosts are regarded as distributors, so they do not have to keep a copy of our records....

If the DOJ or as you say the FBI want to visit me then I'll show them the records, as I'm sure the others will.... But I think that they have enough US residents to go after first....

[rgb]

Most of this law has been in place for years without worrying UK webmasters. From my research the important changes seem to be:

1. Secondary producers e.g TGP site owners, web-based distributors of DVD?s with explicit box covers on show etc. have always been required to keep model records but have been sheltering under a court case (commonly called Sundance) which said they didn?t have to. But NOW this has been reversed by the current change. This is the big one for webmasters in the USA.

2. Non US models working in the USA can only use a US issued document as evidence of identity ? so they must be green card holders, NOT a visitor or even a temporary work permit holder.

3. Web hosting companies are now specifically excluded from record keeping responsibilities.

4. Cartoon characters no longer need ID - true!!

It's pretty obvious that US law does not apply to non-US citizens outside the USA - unless they've invaded you lately.

rgb

[lucifers_film_maker]

Well Joe, as you well know, we help models to work in the USA. Our main USA distributor is Underground Video in New York, or World Wide Distributor is Cable Entertainment Distribution in Los Angeles.

We have helped these girls work over there and we also send models to conventions to promote the DVD's. Angelica Vamp will be in Bondage.com and perhaps Sahara in Florida in August.

As we operate totally legally everywhere we trade, we have to ensure that our content conforms to 18 USC 2257 and for that matter the expected change to all condom videos which we predict will happen within 18 months.

We also have to ensure that when representing us in the USA the models are legal.

We also arrange UK WP3 work permits for non EU citizens who come to work here, rather than bring them in on holiday.

Because of this and our continuing relationship with AVN which goes back several years, and the fact that I studied contract law as part of my degree, AVN often asks me my opinion.

Unlike some who have written on this subject, I do have access to US Lawyers and also the Greater New York Chamber of Commerce. I also wrote all the contracts for our projects, which are approved by the NY Chamber.

Over the last year I have consulted for The Independent, Sky TV, The Voice and other publications as well as UK Customs and Excise on various aspects of European Pornography law.

What I do not do, is make product for the UK, so most people have never heard of me. That's fine.

I believe that a revised review of 58 Bridge St will soon appear here. Probably sometime next week.

My artistic side will not let me butcher videos just to keep the BBFC happy.

European Gothic, who I represent, makes costume period porn, with budgets in excess of UK?20,000 and we can only recoup that cost from a strong US base.

Our distributors will only take product that conforms with US law, so it is part of my job to ensure that our scripts do conform to the law and on 58 Bridge St, we only had to cut 17 seconds to keep their lawyers happy.

I guess AVN thought that meant I might have a little knowledge, no doubt there are plenty of others here who do not.


So what do I know.

Tony