"A poll is a poll."
I know.
"Labour lost badly and were destroyed across the border".
I know that too. I heard it on the tele.
"You now have to choose a new leader from a pathetically weak group of candidates. "
Dunno about that. Compared to the Tories with Teresa May "reducing immigration to the tens of thousands" at the Home Office, Grant Shapps, well-known man of many disguises, Hunt, the Jim Dale lookalike from Carry on Doctor, George "I am going to get rid of the deficit by the end of the parliament, retain our triple A status otherwise the UK will end up like Greece" Osborne and Sajid Javid, well known robot, they look to have a decent bunch to choose from.
Opinion Polls
Re: Opinion Polls
On regional TV in a constituency that in 2010 was a marginal seat but where now the Tories have a majority of almost 5000 one local asked by the reporter for her thoughts on the result replied that it reflected people voting based on what they did not want rather than support for their choice.
Was it this situation as well as those who were undecided right until election day that caused the prediction of even the last opinion polls to be so different from the actual result?
Was it this situation as well as those who were undecided right until election day that caused the prediction of even the last opinion polls to be so different from the actual result?
Re: Argie
Well Harman has already said that she will be standing down as deputy leader so it won't be her ? dinosaur or not.
Names I have seen today inc Liz Kendall, Andy Burnham, Chuka Umunna, the Hon Tristram Hunt, Dan Jarvis but there was a ginger Labour bloke on Newsnight last night saying that they should choose someone from the young generation. Presumably he means someone of the 2010 intake rather than the 1970s dance troupe.
Names I have seen today inc Liz Kendall, Andy Burnham, Chuka Umunna, the Hon Tristram Hunt, Dan Jarvis but there was a ginger Labour bloke on Newsnight last night saying that they should choose someone from the young generation. Presumably he means someone of the 2010 intake rather than the 1970s dance troupe.
Re: Argie
David I think many people would agree that most MPs are twats but as is obvious now many people opted to pick Tory twats rather than Labour ones. I'm sure you're aware that up here a Labour MP was ousted by a 20 year old girl. I don't know the facts here ------ was the ousted MP useless ?did the voters feel let down by Labour ? or do they think that the girl is brilliant ? Time will tell I suppose but it must be a terrible slap in the face to the Labour party when an untested young girl is chosen over a seasoned campaigner.
DJ
David Johnson wrote:
> The "shy Tory" is the voter who realises that the Tories are
> about people who tend to only care about themselves
Not sure that is strictly true. It might be someone who lives in a working class area and is embarrassed to admit that they vote Tory. You know the same kind of people who tell interviewers that there should be more documentaries on TV and then go home and watch Big Brother and EastEnders.
believe
> that the state as far as possible should not support the
> unemployed, the sick and the disabled
Again, I don't think that's true. Most people with a heart (yes, even some Tories have a heart) do not begrudge the sick and disabled as much help as is possible. The problem begins when you see people like those on Benefits Street and the genuine unemployed get lumped in with scroungers. Labour had 13 years to build houses, invest in industry and get people back into work. It failed ? miserably.
and the public sector
> such as the one you work in should be very, very small.
Yes, most people who don't vote Labour think the state should interfere as little as possible. Mainly because the state is not very good at running things...
>
> The essence of Toryism was rather hilariously summarised by
> Thatcher when she told the story of the Good Samaritan in terms
> of the Samaritan would not have been remembered unless he had
> been wealthy and able to help the person by the roadside.
No, that may be the essence of Thatcherism. It is not the essence of Toryism as many genuine One Nation Tories would attest.
>
> This is what Thatcher used to defend the concentration of
> wealth in the hands of a few as not being a problem so much as
> a wonderful opportunity for generous philanthropic giving.
And sadly not a problem addressed by either Blair or Brown in 13 years.
>
> The "shy Tory" is typically some one who is doing alright (sic) or
> very well, is ashamed of voting Tory so they keep it to
> themselves even though they realise they are allowing personal
> self interest override the common good.
If you don't think that most people vote for what does them personally good, then you are living in a very nice world.
> The "shy Tory" is the voter who realises that the Tories are
> about people who tend to only care about themselves
Not sure that is strictly true. It might be someone who lives in a working class area and is embarrassed to admit that they vote Tory. You know the same kind of people who tell interviewers that there should be more documentaries on TV and then go home and watch Big Brother and EastEnders.
believe
> that the state as far as possible should not support the
> unemployed, the sick and the disabled
Again, I don't think that's true. Most people with a heart (yes, even some Tories have a heart) do not begrudge the sick and disabled as much help as is possible. The problem begins when you see people like those on Benefits Street and the genuine unemployed get lumped in with scroungers. Labour had 13 years to build houses, invest in industry and get people back into work. It failed ? miserably.
and the public sector
> such as the one you work in should be very, very small.
Yes, most people who don't vote Labour think the state should interfere as little as possible. Mainly because the state is not very good at running things...
>
> The essence of Toryism was rather hilariously summarised by
> Thatcher when she told the story of the Good Samaritan in terms
> of the Samaritan would not have been remembered unless he had
> been wealthy and able to help the person by the roadside.
No, that may be the essence of Thatcherism. It is not the essence of Toryism as many genuine One Nation Tories would attest.
>
> This is what Thatcher used to defend the concentration of
> wealth in the hands of a few as not being a problem so much as
> a wonderful opportunity for generous philanthropic giving.
And sadly not a problem addressed by either Blair or Brown in 13 years.
>
> The "shy Tory" is typically some one who is doing alright (sic) or
> very well, is ashamed of voting Tory so they keep it to
> themselves even though they realise they are allowing personal
> self interest override the common good.
If you don't think that most people vote for what does them personally good, then you are living in a very nice world.
Re: Opinion Polls
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-polls-were-not-wrong/
David have a read through the article above. The polls were interpreted poorly, that is all.
David have a read through the article above. The polls were interpreted poorly, that is all.
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David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Essex Lad
To be honest I haven't thought about it. I was as surprised by Thursday's result as everyone else. I agree with others on here that it is important to get someone who is not weighed down with the baggage of the past.
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David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Dick
I agree, but it is also a comment on the gullibility of the Scottish electorate.
I struggle to see the SNP as a "left wing, anti-austerity party" in practice and to elect a 20 year old with a huge electoral swing, who is busy doing her finals instead of someone like Douglas Alexander who has a wealth of experience seems a little strange.
I struggle to see the SNP as a "left wing, anti-austerity party" in practice and to elect a 20 year old with a huge electoral swing, who is busy doing her finals instead of someone like Douglas Alexander who has a wealth of experience seems a little strange.
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David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Essex Lad
"Not sure that is strictly true. It might be someone who lives in a working class area and is embarrassed to admit that they vote Tory. "
Perhaps but it is more due to a realisation that the Tories are the enemy of the unemployed, the vulnerable etc. in society. I do not buy the Tory argument that the vast increase in food bank use is simply down to the increased awareness of their existence.
"Most people with a heart (yes, even some Tories have a heart) do not begrudge the sick and disabled as much help as is possible. The problem begins when you see people like those on Benefits Street and the genuine unemployed get lumped in with scroungers."
Well I did say "as far as possible" and the Tories seem to think that the "the Big Society" should replace a lot of public sector involvement.
"Yes, most people who don't vote Labour think the state should interfere as little as possible. Mainly because the state is not very good at running things..."
Disagree. So you think that the energy sector, railways, the private housing sector with the collapse of social housing is now a huge improvement on the cost/benefit provided by the state run services? I do not think that is the case.
"No, that may be the essence of Thatcherism. It is not the essence of Toryism as many genuine One Nation Tories would attest."
Disagree. Much of one nation Toryism is a marketing concept. We all remember Cameron hugging a husky with plans to be the greenest government in history. The nation is far, far more divided now than what it was in 2010 as a result of a concerted Tory plan to set the employed against the unemployed and the private sector against the public sector. So much for Cameron's One Nation Toryism.
"And sadly not a problem addressed by either Blair or Brown in 13 years."
Agreed.
"If you don't think that most people vote for what does them personally good, then you are living in a very nice world."
Voting for personal interest and the common good are not mutually exclusive. For example, a desire to vote for a party whoever it might be that plans to increase the building of social housing could both meet the personal interest as well as the common good.
The problem with the Tories is that they are all about supporting the employed private sector worker to the detriment off the unemployed or public sector workers which is why Osborne launched a relentless divisive assault on the unemployed and public sector in the early years of this government.
Perhaps but it is more due to a realisation that the Tories are the enemy of the unemployed, the vulnerable etc. in society. I do not buy the Tory argument that the vast increase in food bank use is simply down to the increased awareness of their existence.
"Most people with a heart (yes, even some Tories have a heart) do not begrudge the sick and disabled as much help as is possible. The problem begins when you see people like those on Benefits Street and the genuine unemployed get lumped in with scroungers."
Well I did say "as far as possible" and the Tories seem to think that the "the Big Society" should replace a lot of public sector involvement.
"Yes, most people who don't vote Labour think the state should interfere as little as possible. Mainly because the state is not very good at running things..."
Disagree. So you think that the energy sector, railways, the private housing sector with the collapse of social housing is now a huge improvement on the cost/benefit provided by the state run services? I do not think that is the case.
"No, that may be the essence of Thatcherism. It is not the essence of Toryism as many genuine One Nation Tories would attest."
Disagree. Much of one nation Toryism is a marketing concept. We all remember Cameron hugging a husky with plans to be the greenest government in history. The nation is far, far more divided now than what it was in 2010 as a result of a concerted Tory plan to set the employed against the unemployed and the private sector against the public sector. So much for Cameron's One Nation Toryism.
"And sadly not a problem addressed by either Blair or Brown in 13 years."
Agreed.
"If you don't think that most people vote for what does them personally good, then you are living in a very nice world."
Voting for personal interest and the common good are not mutually exclusive. For example, a desire to vote for a party whoever it might be that plans to increase the building of social housing could both meet the personal interest as well as the common good.
The problem with the Tories is that they are all about supporting the employed private sector worker to the detriment off the unemployed or public sector workers which is why Osborne launched a relentless divisive assault on the unemployed and public sector in the early years of this government.