Today's events in France..

[Sam Slater]

....serious discussion. No petty arguments or sarcasm please.....


What do people think about the today's events that have happened in France and what does this mean in the long run?

Is this going to become more frequent across Europe and something we all have to live with? Like it or not, lots of Muslims in Europe are born here. They are not outsiders anymore and just as European as you or I. Can we expect small-scale terrorist acts in town centres around the UK?

And what does this say about the social experiment we've all been taking part in this last 60 years or so called 'multiculturalism'? I grew up in a multicultural community and had a great childhood. I never really experienced much racism until I left school and started work and people could ask me "what's in like living with all those Pakis?" I couldn't understand their stance and attitude at all. It was alien to me. I'd like to think it made me a more rounded individual. Too many who talk about 'multiculturalism' whether they support it or not, have never really lived it and pretty much ignorant. For me we have no choice in the matter and that we have to make it work - somehow.

I'm unsure myself on attacks in the UK. And I mean, really unsure. My gut feeling tells me we won't get the same sorts of attacks over here, but I know that there are enough bad eggs in every society and group that can cause mayhem without much planning, so my head is saying 'of course we're going to get copycat attacks!'.

I just feel sorry for future generations that may grow up in a country that is split amongst religious lines when for so long now we've avoided the sectarianism that Ireland and some parts of Scotland suffer with.

Does multi-faith communities stop multiculturalism working as we hoped it would?

Sorry for the barrage of questions......just riffing!

[Porn Baron]

France is not multicultural. It has big problems concerning its immigrant population: racism, discrimination and has an inefficient secular integration model. French don't call people born in France to immigrants French. They are called second or third generation immigrants. There are high numbers of unemployed immigrants who live in large run down city slums outside of places like Paris. Children were banned from wearing head scarfs at schools. There is no attempt at integration.

We here need to stop these radical Islamic preachers. Abu Hamza for example who we allowed to preach his evil coruption of the Koran. We did fuck all to stop him.

[David Johnson]

"I grew up in a multicultural community and had a great childhood. I never really experienced much racism until I left school and started work and people could ask me "what's in like living with all those Pakis?" I couldn't understand their stance and attitude at all. It was alien to me. I'd like to think it made me a more rounded individual. Too many who talk about 'multiculturalism' whether they support it or not, have never really lived it and pretty much ignorant."

I would have thought that similar attacks in the UK and France are inevitable.

Out of interest when did you start thinking "I hate Islam" and that it is a "medieval death cult?" I assume this did not happen during your upbringing because I would have thought that would have resulted in an unhappy time if you shared your views with Muslim friends.

As I have tried to explain elsewhere on this forum

the overwhelming majority of British Muslims are not about to kill unbelievers.

So the key task is to ensure that Muslims do not move from the non-violent group to the jihadi group and secondly that jihadis are more effectively monitored. My suggestions would be:

1. Not to take a leaf out of your book and keep stating how much you hate Islam, a medieval death cult and despise Muslims' religion. This does nothing to get the law-abiding Muslims on your side and merely makes them feel threatened.
2. Not get involved in illegal wars in Muslim countries which the security services correctly warned Blair and others would lead to an upsurge in home grown radical Islamic attacks.
3. Increase the Security Services spend so that they can monitor more closely the jihadis returning from the likes of Syria to the UK and France.
4. For countries like the UK and France to organise mass demonstrations to be attended by all faiths and no faiths to demonstrate against the evil, despicable acts that have taken place in Paris recently and that we all stand together.
5. For nations to have confidence in their beliefs and for example, political leaders to try and get every newspaper in the UK to produce a cartoon from Charlie Hebdo depicting the Prophet and at the same time a cartoon poking fun at Christianity, Hinduism etc. More or less stating this is what we as a nation believe in In terms of free speech and if you are not happy about that, then please live somewhere else because we are not going to change.
6. Introduce very close checks on Imams preaching in western countries. Muslim pals have told me that one of the problems is that Imams have been flown in from remote parts of Pakistan who have no understanding of the UK, its culture, history and our attitudes towards free speech.
7. Ban faith schools. Our education system should mix kids from different faiths and show them that we have much in common instead of bolstering the differences. If this means bussing kids in large numbers from one part of town to another, then so be it.

These are just a few ideas off the top of my head.

[randyandy]

I am not as strong as Voltaire

I think the scum who have gone to play with their virgins have reduced a cost to the French in prison terms and saved victims families more distress in nonsense appeals through the court system.

Something that could and should have been done here.

I don't give a fuck about so-called martyrs.

It's about time known to 'us' became dealt with by 'us' and to be frank I don't give a fuck if the 'us' are on the fringes or key 'players'.

I suspect the scum will probably try again here, their apologists or fuckwits as I prefer to see them as, can go and fuck themselves if we put the dogs down then they can't bite us.

Integrate or disintegrate it's their choice.

[Essex Lad]

Well, for a start multiculturalism is a failed experiment (like the EU) and political leaders should accept that. Trevor Phillips and Angela Merkel have both said it doesn't work. Hardly political bedfellows but they both say it is a failure.

To stop attacks the politicians need to be more pro-active when it comes to tackling extremism. No more of the likes of Abu Hamza (jailed for life today) preaching his bile on the streets of London; streets closed by the police! No more turning a blind eye to Muslim preachers decrying homosexuality (for example) while arresting Christian B&B owners for holding the same opinion. No more searching old ladies boarding planes in order to assuage young brown men's feelings. When the police tackled football hooliganism they stopped young white men; when they tackled the IRA they stopped and tracked Irish people. When the FBI arrested John Gotti, they didn't put Swedes under surveillance. Muslims must accept that the fundamentalist cancer is in their ranks and realise that they will be disproportionately targeted, stopped and searched.

[max_tranmere]

I don't think the chances of it happening here have increased, everyone is just more afraid since the goings-on in France. I saw on the news today's that four attacks were foiled in the UK in the last 12 months. The best thing to do is carry on as normal, the old 'Blitz spirit'. I remember after the 7/7 attacks here in London everyone carried on as normal but people were very nervous on the Tube. People would look at you nervously if you had a case and so on, but people went about their business as usual - mostly anyway. I remember a small number of people didn't go on the Tube after that, but people were saying around that time that if a ground-level bomb went off you'd be wiped out in the street, so being underground or above ground was equally as dangerous. I personally carried on as normal.

Part of this problem is the use of the word 'racist' against anyone who talks about the subject of muslims being a danger to western society, due to many muslims' intolerance and refusal to totally follow the Western way of life. Someone who is French was telling me that they're just as scared over there of saying anything just like we are here because they'll be branded 'racist' which will more or less ruin their life and the media are only too keen to act as the morality Police on this and vilify anyone also. This person said to me that a lot of towns in the South of France used to be nice places and that old people will tell you how pleasant these places were years ago, prior to vast levels of north African immigration into many of these towns and how you could take your kids out for a walk in the evenings and watch the sunset off the boulevard. Now, many of these towns are no-go areas after dark - north African gangs mugging people and what were proud, dignified, working-class neighbourhoods are unsafe even in the daytime as north African gangs have turned them into drug-dealing hotspots that are unsafe for the average citizen. This person said however that no one dares say any of this publicly because if you do you get the charge of "you're a racist!" thrown at you. So basically you have to like the fact the town has been turned into a shithole, that your kids aren't safe to go out in the evenings and that once proud districts are now shanti-town no-go areas because, if you don't "you're a racist!". How did society ever get to this ludicrous point?

We need to take the definition of the term 'racist' back to what it originally meant across western Europe in the post-war years when large scale immigration was starting - it basically meaning someone who discriminates and/or treats negatively or excludes someone who does not look like them or have the same religion as them. It morphed, largely thanks to the media, into meaning just anything and everything and the majority of the times it is used in society now it is not to mean one of those things but just means anything. The term is unique, the person making the charge doesn't have to explain what they mean and the person on the receiving-end is floored by it and has to start apologising and grovelling to the person accusing them. If we take it back to what it originally meant, ensure the person making the charge has to explain what they mean, the opportunity existing where the accused can defend themselves and it will be listened to, then reasonable criticism of other races and religions will able to be made without fear and the chances of muslim extremists in France and in this country being able to do what they do will be reduced. Blind-eyes being turned, and the sucking-up to individuals who don't deserve it, will stop. It will also prevent things like the Rochdale child-grooming scandal that happened not so long ago from occurring.

[dave756]

First off, the policeman shot on the video on Thursday was the muslim and the guy shooting him was the terrorist.

"north African gangs mugging people and what were proud, dignified, working-class neighbourhoods are unsafe even in the daytime as north African gangs have turned them into drug-dealing hotspots that are unsafe for the average citizen."

This is an age old problem and one you can't just level at the people doing these crimes but are you linking this with being muslim? Why?

Have a read at this which shows we had these problems before.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/aug/ ... are_btn_fb

[Sam Slater]

Thanks for all your thoughts. Some I agree with, others not so much.

Regardless, multiculturalism is here to stay. Many old immigrant communities now have 3rd and 4th generations who've been born in Europe. They're here to stay and shouldn't be looked upon as outsiders anymore, even thought they sometimes intentionally/unintentionally segregate themselves.

So, again, we have to make this work. An obvious answer you may think, but many people still think it's somehow a problem with 'foreigners' that will all be fixed if we stop immigration etc.

I was reading up on interculturalism the other day and how it tries to tackle the problem with communities self-segregating themselves.



I suppose that we are all still new to this and it's going to take time. I just hope we become more honest in how to overcome problems rather than turning a blind eye or flat out denying them as we've done quite a lot of over the years.

[Essex Lad]

Sam Slater wrote:

> Thanks for all your thoughts. Some I agree with, others not so
> much.
>
> Regardless, multiculturalism is here to stay.
Not if the Muslims get their way, it ain't...

[Sam Slater]

'Some Muslims', Essex Lad, 'some'.