Mass Murderer Funeral live on BBC
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Arginald Valleywater
- Posts: 4288
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Mass Murderer Funeral live on BBC
Nothing to do with his colour. A murderer is a murderer whether they are white, purple, tall, thin, oblong, Jewish, Muslim or flatearthist. I am sure the ANC's victims are happy you can play the race card over their loved one's deaths.
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David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Argie
"Nothing to do with his colour. A murderer is a murderer whether they are white, purple, tall, thin, oblong, Jewish, Muslim or flatearthist. "
Did I miss your condemnation of Maggie Thatcher as a "murderer" for authorising the killing of 323 Argentinians on the Belgrano which was sailing away from the Falklands at the time it was sunk?
Did I miss your condemnation of Maggie Thatcher as a "murderer" for authorising the killing of 323 Argentinians on the Belgrano which was sailing away from the Falklands at the time it was sunk?
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David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
CB
"Question : Did Nelson Mandela kill/have people killed because of what he believed I"
Talking of belief, I find it beyond belief that you are still rabbiting on about this murderer/terrorist point. As if it ends the argument or is some kind of really well put point. It is very silly, Cunty.
Who else can we claim to be a murderer? Well how about any politician who has voted to authorise a war. Anybody in the armed forces who is responsible for killing someone in a war deemed illegal. Anybody who has killed someone as part of a resistance movement in their own country fighting an invasion.
Well that gives us a group of several million at the very least. So how do we decide which of these people who have killed people either directly or indirectly can have their life summed up as murderers? Well you look at the circumstances of that murdering act, before and after and then look at the rest of their life to come to a sensible evaluation.
Stop being dozy!
Talking of belief, I find it beyond belief that you are still rabbiting on about this murderer/terrorist point. As if it ends the argument or is some kind of really well put point. It is very silly, Cunty.
Who else can we claim to be a murderer? Well how about any politician who has voted to authorise a war. Anybody in the armed forces who is responsible for killing someone in a war deemed illegal. Anybody who has killed someone as part of a resistance movement in their own country fighting an invasion.
Well that gives us a group of several million at the very least. So how do we decide which of these people who have killed people either directly or indirectly can have their life summed up as murderers? Well you look at the circumstances of that murdering act, before and after and then look at the rest of their life to come to a sensible evaluation.
Stop being dozy!
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David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Any black leaders you admire Argie?
So you say it has nothing to do with colour.
Well you seem to despise Mandela. You also seem to despise Obama.
Any black political leaders that you do admire?
Well you seem to despise Mandela. You also seem to despise Obama.
Any black political leaders that you do admire?
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Cuntybollocks
- Posts: 378
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: CB
David, shut up and fuck off. We know you are nothing but a troll.
The question if for number 6 and only number 6. I'm sorry if that is confusing for you.
I'm waiting.......
The question if for number 6 and only number 6. I'm sorry if that is confusing for you.
I'm waiting.......
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David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: CB
"David, shut up and fuck off. We know you are nothing but a troll. "
I see you have found a new, favourite word "troll". Easier to use the word "troll" rather than come up with an intelligent answer.
That's the difference between you and me, Cunty.
When you ask me a question about a response that I have made to Argie, not you, like here, for example
I don't reply "CB, shut up and fuck off. We know you are nothing but a troll." Instead I have the manners to answer your point.
You can't answer my point, can you? Best just to say that, rather than humiliate yourself by coming up with a reply that makes you look like an ignorant bonehead.
I see you have found a new, favourite word "troll". Easier to use the word "troll" rather than come up with an intelligent answer.
That's the difference between you and me, Cunty.
When you ask me a question about a response that I have made to Argie, not you, like here, for example
I don't reply "CB, shut up and fuck off. We know you are nothing but a troll." Instead I have the manners to answer your point.
You can't answer my point, can you? Best just to say that, rather than humiliate yourself by coming up with a reply that makes you look like an ignorant bonehead.
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frankthring
- Posts: 962
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Mass Murderer Funeral live on BBC
Look, Arginald, no one on the planet is a bigger imperialist than me, no one -
and perhaps unlike you I have travelled to many Third World countries and
seen the mess they have made of their independence - but Jesus, to not
realise the debt the world owes Mandela is to be just too dumb.....As the
only person the South African nationalist movement would accept as leader,
come out of 30 years gaol and, instead of working for disharmony or filling
his life with hatred, actually worked to bring harmony to his racially divided
and wealthy nation was an amazing achievement ! The man showed real
integrity, real statesmanship. I think F.W.de Klerk is perhaps not honoured
as much as he deserves for helping pave the way for the "Rainbow Nation",
but Mandela`s immense achievments tower over the rest.
Comparing him to another ex-terrorist such as Mugabe, for example, is like
staring at an ant next to to a lion. He was the greatest black leader of the
20th century and it will be a long time before the world sees another with his
integrity.
"Immoral" wife beater buried ? is that better?
RACHEL JOHNSON: I'll get hate mail for this... Mandela was NOT perfect
You'll get hate mail,? I was warned by William Nicholson, who wrote the new Mandela movie, after I?d told him what I was going to say here.
And yes, I am aware that the late first black leader of South Africa is being buried today, and may his mortal soul rest in peace.
After Nelson Mandela died, aged 95 (I was surprised that some of the hacks who?d prepared his obits hadn?t predeceased him), our national broadcaster cleared the schedules across the channels for syrupy obsequies.
Editors obeyed the convention that you must only speak good of the newly departed so literally ? and at such length ? that, after several days, one could only pray for one?s own end to come quickly (the BBC has now received 1,000 complaints, not including this one).
And yet, in all this, no one really flagged up something that is foregrounded early on in the epic new biopic The Long Walk To Freedom.
And I found this a strange omission, given the opprobrium heaped on Charles Saatchi for gripping his then wife Nigella Lawson around the neck in a public place. Or indeed on Lord Edward Somerset, who last week brought ?disgrace? on to the storied and ducal family name of Beaufort by pleading guilty at Bristol Crown Court to two decades of domestic violence against his wife.
Allow me to explain if you haven?t seen the film ? although at this point, I?m so confused that I?m not sure if it?s tasteless to mention it, or derelict to leave it out.
Anyway: in the film, our hero is shown as a sharp-suited Jo?burg lawyer in his 20s ? and a faithless and violent husband. At one point, his first wife Evelyn is so enraged by his tomcatting that she brandishes a red-hot poker at her husband, who retaliates by striking his wife to the ground.
This isn?t the first time that Mandela has been painted a womanising wife-beater: in 2010, David James Smith wrote a biography called Young Mandela. He recounts how Evelyn claimed he beat and throttled her, and even threatened to murder her with an axe.
This has been denied by Team Mandela. But the fact the filmmakers included so many of their subject?s youthful warts, while he was still alive, is significant and, I would argue, far more instructive than the post-mortem open-casket airbrushing of the broadcasters.
Their coverage favoured comparisons with Gandhi, and Mother Teresa, even though Mandela himself asked for the line ?I led a thoroughly immoral life? to be inserted into his own autobiography. At one point, one of the many hundred BBC journalists on the story even asked a talking head to compare ?Madiba? to Jesus.
In bracing contrast, the filmmakers felt it important to show their subject as he was. Drafts of the film were shown to members of Mandela?s circle, and approved, though one, Ahmed Kathrada, who spent 26 years in prison with Mandela, did object to portions of script showing Mandela?s roving eye and flying fists. But Mandela, according to Nicholson, ?trusted? the director to get it right.
Nicholson said: ?It was a tremendous problem, how to portray an icon. He wasn?t born the way he ended up.
?So we had to show what happened. This is a guy who is not unlike other men. He messed up his marriages and destroyed two families. He made mistakes, but over time, changed. If we show he is human, then we too can say we can do what he did. If we show an angel, however, we can?t.?
I believe the screenwriter is right to insist we need to talk about Nelson as well as mourn ?Madiba?. The glossing of his biography is a disservice in terms of human ? as opposed to political ? legacy. Mandela was a man of his time.
But domestic violence is not something that went on only in South Africa under apartheid. Or is merely perpetrated by men against women. In the last crime survey of England and Wales, there were 1.2 million female victims of domestic abuse, and 800,000 men. In fact, it?s such a common problem that cast members of Hollyoaks are to star in a series of TV ads to promote the Government?s ?This Is Abuse? campaign ? playing out scenes of different types of domestic abuse.
But still. Daring of the film producers to show the ?arc? of Mandela?s ?journey? from darkness into light. And correct. ?The more human Mandela becomes, the more extraordinary his achievements,? argues Nicholson. If we don?t talk about domestic violence, or admit it, this helps neither ?abusers? nor their ?victims? ? the Somersets? went on for an alleged 22 years, Nigella Lawson in court talked of acts of ?intimate terrorism? over her ten-year marriage.
As for my hate mail, Nicholson doesn?t think I?m going to get it for saying Mandela was a wife-beater. After all, that?s in the film. And the biography.
No, I?m going to get it in the neck for saying this: as the life story of Mandela teaches us, it?s not all black and white. Not all men who beat women ? or women who beat men ? are monsters.
You'll get hate mail,? I was warned by William Nicholson, who wrote the new Mandela movie, after I?d told him what I was going to say here.
And yes, I am aware that the late first black leader of South Africa is being buried today, and may his mortal soul rest in peace.
After Nelson Mandela died, aged 95 (I was surprised that some of the hacks who?d prepared his obits hadn?t predeceased him), our national broadcaster cleared the schedules across the channels for syrupy obsequies.
Editors obeyed the convention that you must only speak good of the newly departed so literally ? and at such length ? that, after several days, one could only pray for one?s own end to come quickly (the BBC has now received 1,000 complaints, not including this one).
And yet, in all this, no one really flagged up something that is foregrounded early on in the epic new biopic The Long Walk To Freedom.
And I found this a strange omission, given the opprobrium heaped on Charles Saatchi for gripping his then wife Nigella Lawson around the neck in a public place. Or indeed on Lord Edward Somerset, who last week brought ?disgrace? on to the storied and ducal family name of Beaufort by pleading guilty at Bristol Crown Court to two decades of domestic violence against his wife.
Allow me to explain if you haven?t seen the film ? although at this point, I?m so confused that I?m not sure if it?s tasteless to mention it, or derelict to leave it out.
Anyway: in the film, our hero is shown as a sharp-suited Jo?burg lawyer in his 20s ? and a faithless and violent husband. At one point, his first wife Evelyn is so enraged by his tomcatting that she brandishes a red-hot poker at her husband, who retaliates by striking his wife to the ground.
This isn?t the first time that Mandela has been painted a womanising wife-beater: in 2010, David James Smith wrote a biography called Young Mandela. He recounts how Evelyn claimed he beat and throttled her, and even threatened to murder her with an axe.
This has been denied by Team Mandela. But the fact the filmmakers included so many of their subject?s youthful warts, while he was still alive, is significant and, I would argue, far more instructive than the post-mortem open-casket airbrushing of the broadcasters.
Their coverage favoured comparisons with Gandhi, and Mother Teresa, even though Mandela himself asked for the line ?I led a thoroughly immoral life? to be inserted into his own autobiography. At one point, one of the many hundred BBC journalists on the story even asked a talking head to compare ?Madiba? to Jesus.
In bracing contrast, the filmmakers felt it important to show their subject as he was. Drafts of the film were shown to members of Mandela?s circle, and approved, though one, Ahmed Kathrada, who spent 26 years in prison with Mandela, did object to portions of script showing Mandela?s roving eye and flying fists. But Mandela, according to Nicholson, ?trusted? the director to get it right.
Nicholson said: ?It was a tremendous problem, how to portray an icon. He wasn?t born the way he ended up.
?So we had to show what happened. This is a guy who is not unlike other men. He messed up his marriages and destroyed two families. He made mistakes, but over time, changed. If we show he is human, then we too can say we can do what he did. If we show an angel, however, we can?t.?
I believe the screenwriter is right to insist we need to talk about Nelson as well as mourn ?Madiba?. The glossing of his biography is a disservice in terms of human ? as opposed to political ? legacy. Mandela was a man of his time.
But domestic violence is not something that went on only in South Africa under apartheid. Or is merely perpetrated by men against women. In the last crime survey of England and Wales, there were 1.2 million female victims of domestic abuse, and 800,000 men. In fact, it?s such a common problem that cast members of Hollyoaks are to star in a series of TV ads to promote the Government?s ?This Is Abuse? campaign ? playing out scenes of different types of domestic abuse.
But still. Daring of the film producers to show the ?arc? of Mandela?s ?journey? from darkness into light. And correct. ?The more human Mandela becomes, the more extraordinary his achievements,? argues Nicholson. If we don?t talk about domestic violence, or admit it, this helps neither ?abusers? nor their ?victims? ? the Somersets? went on for an alleged 22 years, Nigella Lawson in court talked of acts of ?intimate terrorism? over her ten-year marriage.
As for my hate mail, Nicholson doesn?t think I?m going to get it for saying Mandela was a wife-beater. After all, that?s in the film. And the biography.
No, I?m going to get it in the neck for saying this: as the life story of Mandela teaches us, it?s not all black and white. Not all men who beat women ? or women who beat men ? are monsters.