West should have talked to Taliban

[David Johnson]

My purposely sarcastic reply was clearly a riposte to Sam's purposely sarcastic reply.

This is my last post to you, Essex Lad.

You are like a bear with a sore head.

[mrchapel]

Here or in Afghanistan?

[Sam Slater]

[quote]So if 2002 was the best time to get a political agreement with the Taliban according to the top UK general in Afghanistan, doesn't look rosy for female education in Afghanistan when the Allies pull out their troops, does it?[/quote]

Indeed. Which is why I don't want us to pull out.

[Gentleman]

I agree with you Sam because a few body bags Come home te political parties get worried about their election chances so its a head long retreat home leaving the innocent to suffer.

[David Johnson]

"Indeed. Which is why I don't want us to pull out."

Well if you are arguing that the Allied troops should stay there, the following points can be made:

1. If you believe, as you seem to, that you "hate Islam" and that the treatment of women as second class citizens is built into Islam, does that mean the Allied troops would need to be there forever?

2. Given the attitude of the Afghans for centuries about the "infidels" invading their country, does that mean there will be a never-ending guerrilla war?

3. Do you believe that the invasion of Iraq or the support for rebel forces in Libya have resulted in a better deal for women in those countries?

[Sam Slater]

[quote]1. If you believe, as you seem to, that you "hate Islam" and that the treatment of women as second class citizens is built into Islam, does that mean the Allied troops would need to be there forever?[/quote]

No. Maybe a generation or two. I think that once you get a mother and grandmother having experienced proper schooling, and grandpa and daddy grown up in a system where girls were educated like they were, it's harder to turn back the clock. The trouble now is that even grandma and mother don't understand the benefits or point of an education for their daughters because they themselves cannot know any better.

I think to change a trait in a certain culture it has to be taught at a young age and kept up and passed on. I was listening to some programme on the BBC (radio) about racism a months ago and they were discussing the decline of racism in our culture. One of the guests pointed out that it wasn't that racists were out-argued and became cosmopolitan advocates, it was that slowly generations of racists just died. Their children were taught a different set of values at schools and colleges and they were just less racist, and their children less racist again.

It has to be maintained, but a certain meme or outlook has to be given the chance to spread and become ingrained. I think Afghan girls deserve that chance. And remember, it's not just women that gain from it all. Everyone in society benefits if you raise the IQ and education of 50% of it's citizens.

[quote]2. Given the attitude of the Afghans for centuries about the "infidels" invading their country, does that mean there will be a never-ending guerrilla war?
[/quote]

I think my answer to question one kind of answers this.

[quote]3. Do you believe that the invasion of Iraq or the support for rebel forces in Libya have resulted in a better deal for women in those countries?[/quote]

It's too soon to say. It's generational and we'd have to come back in two or three generations to find out. Though I actually have more hope for Iraq than Libya and Kurdish women are definitely better off, wouldn't you say? This isn't implying a ban on drink-driving, say, where one can look at road accidents per year and see the almost immediate benefit.

Consider the equal pay act of 1970. 40+ years on and finally women are just catching up. Someone in 1975 might have looked and hardly saw any impact on women's wages at all and could have been of the view it was all a waste of time and money.

This all seems like we're washing our hands of them.

[Essex Lad]

David Johnson wrote:

> My purposely sarcastic reply was clearly a riposte to Sam's
> purposely sarcastic reply.
>
> This is my last post to you, Essex Lad.
>
Do you promise? I mean really promise? Not fingers crossed behind your back promise?

[David Johnson]

I think you are correct that this is going to take generations.

However, it is worth pointing out that this process is likely to take longer when female education is viewed as being enforced by the "foreign infidel invader".

Secondly, education is a double-edged sword. If the purpose of education is to provide "madrassa" like training in which fundamentalism is an integral part of the education as it is in many schools in Pakistan then it can have the opposite to the civilising effect that you would hope for from a school environment.

I think this whole subject of providing "democracy" and "education" to Muslim countries is far, far more complex than many in the West realise. This is why we have the situation in Egypt where the secular middle class appear to be delighted that the first democratically elected government for god knows how long in Egypt has been deposed by the army.

[Sam Slater]

[quote]However, it is worth pointing out that this process is likely to take longer when female education is viewed as being enforced by the "foreign infidel invader".[/quote]

Agreed. The only way for them to see the benefits of a proper education and to not see it as some 'foreign plan' is to become educated about education, if you know what I mean. The old Socratic point about being educated enough to know how ignorant you are.

[quote]Secondly, education is a double-edged sword.[/quote]

I think everything in life can be seen as 'double edged'. Innocent until proven guilty protects the innocent and helps the guilty. It's how it goes I'm afraid. I think denying people an education because you're scared about them turning that against you is a very cynical way to look at the world, David! Hope you've not totally lost your faith in humanity!

[quote]I think this whole subject of providing "democracy" and "education" to Muslim countries is far, far more complex than many in the West realise. This is why we have the situation in Egypt where the secular middle class appear to be delighted that the first democratically elected government for god knows how long in Egypt has been deposed by the army.[/quote]

Not really a fan of armies deposing elected governments myself. Still, in this instance I am glad and it gives me hope Egypt doesn't become some Islamist state. As you point out, it's the more educated, socialist and middle-class Egyptians who've realized they have much to lose from an Islamist, Iranian-style dictatorship.

Islam nearly always leads a country to rack and ruin.......unless you have plenty of oil, of course, but even then the poorest never see the benefit.

[Bjorn69]

Can we not love everyone?