Braveheart..

[max_tranmere]

That's quite funny. I seem to recall the SNP north of the border loved this film originally and they talked about how everyone should go and see it. The SNP were a lot more hard-line years ago, they used to describe Scots living in England as "ex-patriots" - basically foreigners living in another country. They have soffened their line in recent years.

[max_tranmere]

"I guess Braveheart was the scottish equivalent to Django. Or is Django the black Braveheart"

Here we go again. lol.

"If Mel Gibson hates all things british (as a lot of americans with a irish heritage must do as well) then its probably because Australia was the dumping ground of its criminals in the 19th century when they were sentenced to transportation to the colonies"

That would be like a race hating itself. Many Aussies decend from those convicts. All other Aussies, except for the indigeonous people, descend from those who were encouraged to go there and settle because it promised a better life. Lots moved from the UK, and released the reality of the 'dream' which was sold to them wasn't quite what was promised. This is where the 'whinging pom' thing comes from - people who were sold a dream of a lovely utopia, which never really was, and those people moaned for years about it. 'Another bloody day in bloody Australia' was a common line from Fred from Bethnal Green, now living in Sydney with no prospect of ever leaving as he can't afford to, and is stuck there.

[max_tranmere]

second line, final paragragh, should read "and REALISED the reality of the 'dream' ", not "released".

[frankthring]

Max - interesting post. The movie as you say is inaccurate and comes
across as anti-english. It was shot largely on location in Ireland using
mainly Irish actors playing Scots and English alike. The fine actor, Patrick
McGoohan, who has played many a baddie in his day, does a splendid job
of libelling one of England`s greatest kings, Edward I,"hammer of the Scots".
People saying Gibson hates english people have it wrong I think - he often
uses english crews - but the writer of both "Braveheart" and the awful
monstrosity, "The Patriot", (which has the British burning women and
children alive during the American Revolution) is Randall Wallace, a self-
professed Scottish nationalist and a Yank with no respect for historical fact.

[one eyed jack]

In defence of the movie, it starts off with narration setting the tone of telling of a story rather than "based on a true story" that comes up on the screen preceeding the presentation of such films depicting historical accuracy. Therefore I accepted it was a loose telling from the start

I htought there was no more validity to its accuracy than any other film of its lkind like Troy and Gladiator

As a film maker I think Mel Gibson is fantastic. Dont take my word for it, he won numerous awards for his directorial efforts with Apocalypto and The Passion of The Christ.

The Patriot was a great movie too and also more in the vein of artistic license for the sake of big screen entertainment than history lesson worthy of The Discovery channel

Frank, while I know you are as british and imperial as a lovely cup of tea and dunkies your denial that the british did anything nasty to their enemies like throw women and children on fires is a denial of the brute force the british had to deploy in creating this illustrious empire you reminisce and eulogise so fondly of.

Im not having a pop at you being proud of your nations historical achievement but your denial of the horrid actions it took to make it happen is equivocal to criminals who have forged a career from the misery of others.

You may say there is a difference. i will say there is a big difference. The british were more epic in scale with what they did

I'm not anti british by any means but I am very aware of the cruelty in all men and nations in achieving what they have done throughout history

And Max... YO! Im raving about a white man who is definitely in my "cool" books. I dont give a shit what he said to his wife because frankly what he says in his home to his wife is his business and it werent our business knowing what he said. I dont know a black man in the land that pointed fingers at him for it because deep down, we knew exactly what he meant by it

[max_tranmere]

Braveheart is being screened again tonight on Film 4, I might watch some of it again. Mad Mel with his attempt at a Scottish accent and mannerisms, and all this stuff about the horrible English. One thing I thought odd about the film (well there were many, but here's one) was how when Wallace and his men were about to do battle with those nasty English people at Stirling, how did they manage to have a conversation beforehand? The Scots never spoke English then, did they? They couldnt have done as they hadn't been colonised yet.

As far as I recall, the union of Scotland and England came about following Scotland's disasterous attempt at building an Empire for itself. Scotland was nearly bankrupted as a result and England said if you amalgamate with us we'll pay off your huge debts for you. The discussions took place in a series of little roads in Westminster, all of which were named with "Scotland" in their name subsequently. One of which is Scotland Yard which, of course, the London Police force was later named after. Whacky fact for you there guys and gals!

After the union of Scotland and England, Scotland prospered just as much as England as a result of the later created British Empire. All of the programmes I've ever seen about the British Empire, and things I've read too, always list just as many Scottish plantation owners as English ones, and just as many Scottish colonisers as English ones. It's interesting this desire by some now for independance, most Scots apparently don't want it and I am certain the Referendum they are having in 2014 will be defeated. Financially it will be good for England though if it went through, England would save a lot of money.

[one eyed jack]

Max. Its a film!

You must be precisely what the BBFC and and ATVOD was set up for since you have such a hard time differentiating from real life and fictional entertainment

Why just pick on Mel Gibson? You can pick on Brad Pit for playing a pikey, Russell Crowe for playing a spaniard in Gladiator, James earl Jones for being the voice to a white actor in a black outfit of Darth Vader, Andy Serkis for being Gollum, Robert DeNiro for being a gangster, Daniel Day Lewis playing a dead president.

If Braveheart is stupid then everything in the movies is just as stupid

Its acting, its big screen. Its cinema. Its fantasy. It aint real. And if it was real, it was because it said so in the script!

[frankthring]

To be clear I am quite willing to accept a number of nasty things done by
us - the Brits - in other places or in defence of the Empire.
But my point is accurate - during the American Revolution we did not burn
women and chiildren alive in scenes reminiscent of the SS in Russia. The
villainous British officer in The Patriot is based very loosely indeed on a real-
life cavalry officer who was a tough commander but excesses like those
shown in the film towards civilians formed no part of it.
Both Braveheart and The Patriot are thrilling movies but very very poor
history - its thats simple really. What drives me mad is that Cinema can
reinforce these errors and make them seem real in a way that a history
book does not. Both movies are, of course, pure melodramas produced to
entertain only, but I dislike the way they reinforce major inaccuracies.
It would seem to me that one could create a very exciting movie and
exciting characters without resort to such distortions.

[max_tranmere]

Braveheart and others seem to imply there was always this country called Scotland, with the borders we now know, and another country called England, with the borders we know now, and in them there were the indigeonous Scots and the indigeonous English. In reality both sets of people descend from invaders who arrived at some point and the borders of the nations were man-made, and made through people advancing from where they were and taking over some bit of nearby territory. They could make another film, similar to Braveheart, about what "the English" (those people from the southern end of the island) did to the people of what is now northern England - that was added on through invading and take-over. The same with the west of England. If there hadn't been invasions, mass-settling, and people wanting to pinch the land of their neighbour over the last 1500-1700 years, most of western Europe would now be empty. So every race in this region of the world is just as bad as each other, none are 'indigeonous' to where they are and all are only there because they settled in someone elses turf and nicked it for themselves.

[Deg5y]

Its just Hollywood crap at its best,bit like Titanic and numerous other American shite films.They seem to like to make us look a bit thick along with the japs and Germans in war films.