Multiculturalism has failed, says Cameron...

[David Johnson]

"The looney-Left, as they were then referred to, called the shots on everything"

I merely point out that the above is not true. The Tories were in power for three quarters of the 70s and 80's and made the laws. How can they possiblly "call the shots on everything" when they are not even in power in Westminster?

Cheers
D

[David Johnson]

That is exactly his point that you are reiterating i.e. in the vast majority of cases multiculturalism has been a big success. People only mention multiculturalism as a failure when a problem arises. And Zephaniah is making the point that the government's foreign policy has to take a certain amount of that blame.

Cheers
D

[bogwort]

Multiculturalism is ok when introduced cultures are subservient to the indigenous one.

All the sub cultures in the UK are relatively small and those in them accept this.

They maintain and often adapt their cultural habits and practices as required and observe and respect the culture of of their adopted country.

What Cameron really means (and everyone knows he means it) but is to scared to say is that there is a substantial minority sub culture in the UK who does not follow these "rules".

Of course he means the Asian/muslim community.

The Asian/moslim community do not want to integrate in terms acceptable to the indigenous population.

To say so is unacceptable to the psuedo intellectuals who hold sway in the corridors of power.

Hence Cameron trys to hide this fact under the guise that multiculturalism is a failure when its not.

Cameron et all should address the REAL issues and not spray the blame across everyone.

[Sam Slater]

[quote]I don't agree with the statement that it is "pure and simple religion". Even considering underlying reasons, it is much more complex than that. People make a similar mistake when putting the Northern Ireland Troubles purely down to religion.[/quote]

Well, if you peel away the layers (latest excuses) only religion is left. Same goes for the NI troubles. Of course the troubles are complex, but what causes the division in the first place? Religion does.

[quote]The British and Americans have been playing geo-political power games in the Arab countries for decades and decades. So Saddam is the good guy as far as the West is concerned as long as he is at war with Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran. When he steps out of line, they invade Iraq and hundreds and thousands die.[/quote]

I don't disagree, David. Previous, and current, policies of supporting cruel dictators is regrettable. I have no intention of defending them. But we have to be careful about criticising the past support of Saddam Hussain. Maybe at the time he really was the best of the two evils. Who knows. At that time Saddam was considered the 'secular' leader in the middle east. Maybe that was our government's reasoning at the time. But this is by the bye. I think that it's BECAUSE we supported him in the past we were even more responsible for the bad things he did and should have removed him. To let him carry on murdering his own people because we'd supported him 25 years hence would make us doubly guilty. And remember, at that time Saddam was seen as an enemy of Islam. Why didn't our support of him extremists to bomb western nations then? Being bombed in '05 had nothing to do with the war, in my opinion, it was more about the terrorist networks that had been underground for a long time waking up after 9/11 and carrying out their plans. The war was a convenient excuse, not the underlying reason.

[quote]Mubarak and the King of Saudi Arabia run cruel dictatorships where people's freedoms are ruthlessly suppressed but it pays the West to have these people in power so let's not rock the boat. [/quote]

Of course! We're oil whores and if they turn the tap off we're all fucked. Another reason for us all to go green and for the ant-global warming nutjobs to wake up and get out their bicycle clips !happy!

[quote]The Taliban are the good guys who we arm when they are fighting the Ruskis but they become the bad guys as soon as they have "terrorist" training camps in Afghanistan.[/quote]

Again, because we armed them to the teeth, and have trained them in the past, we are doubly responsible and should stop them when they use their arms and training on the local populace. Past support is a horrid reason to turn a blind eye to current atrocities.

[quote]Clearly, any interpretation of the Islamic religion, one of the world's great religions, that supports the stoning of women, the amputation of thieves' hands, the hatred of Christians is not a correct one any more than the Christian fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible should support the shooting of an abortionist. However, political actions have had a major part to play.[/quote]

It's a little different to Christianity in that the Islamic world has never had a period of enlightenment. Our bishops and vicars try and cloud over the more abominable scripts of the Bible by telling us certain passages are only to be taken metaphorically. All this confusion about what's metaphorical, what's literal and what's ignored altogether is why Christianity has many more sects and offshoots than Islam. The Quran is considered the perfect, unalterable, unquestionable, LITERAL and FINAL word of God. Because of this it's harder for the moderate, liberal Muslims to dissuade the extremists who pick passages to excuse what they do. There is a debate going on within Islam about this problem and that maybe some passages Mohammed didn't mean so literally, but you know how people are that have been indoctrinated from birth. It will take a long time. Even the supposed enlightened Christians get a little hot-headed from time to time. Not so much, though. I'd feel a hell of a lot safer running into any church in the West screaming "Jesus is a bender!", than I would running into your average mosque saying the same thing about Mohammed. I'd be horrified if anyone took this as an attack on Muslims, I'm just being honest and very very critical of their religion and trying to explain why I think it's easier for Islam to turn into some sort of death cult for the extremists, compared to Christianity.

[quote]Why would British troops help the Americans to kill Afghanis for what people in New York experienced in 9/11?...............A perceived shared set of beliefs and identities perhaps?[/quote]

Yes, more than likely. But in politics beliefs and ideas can change. We didn't support America's invasion of Vietnam for instance. Please remember that after 9/11 Osama Bin Laden declared a holy war, not just on America, but Western Ideals. This really isn't up for debate. No western nation has declared war on Muslims. In fact many Western leaders have had to specifically state, officially, more than once, that these wars are not an attack on Islam.

9/11 was the start of a holy war. If Palestinians were Christian, and Jews were taking Christian land, we wouldn't have Muslim suicide bombers. The Palestinian lineage goes back to the Philistines who were Pagan Greeks anyway, who settled around the Gaza and slowly converted to, or were forced to, convert to Islam during centuries of Mesopotamian invasions. All non-Muslims were killed or enslaved and the only way out of it was conversion. Thus, their only connection with the Arab world is their current religion - Islam.

[Sam Slater]

The difference between the Union Flag and a Kilt is that a Kilt is a piece of traditional dress. A flag is a flag.

Maybe if Scottish fascists had taken up the Kilt in the same way the old National Front did with the Union Flag then yes, many people might look upon tartan as a symbol of fascism.

Luckily for you and your kilt, they didn't.

P.s. It's not a short kilt, I hope. Wasn't that an English invention?

[Sam Slater]

I think it's silly to say Muslims in this county don't want to integrate. I know many Muslims who've wanted to choose their own wife and sneak out with me for drinks as a teenager.

Having lived in a large Muslim community for over 25 years I'd say the biggest change has been Muslim parents organising husbands and wives for their children, who come from the more remote areas of Pakistan. Areas what are not as liberal as the bigger cities like Karachi and Islamabad. These Muslims then move here and are critical at how British Muslims behave. Shaming them, if you like.

Imagine what our society would be like in 40 years if all white parents picked wives and girlfriends for their children from Amish communities in America and Europe. Steadily the general population would become much more traditional, evangelical and conservative.

Many British Muslim parents think a British Muslim girl won't look after their son as well as a good, traditional Muslim girl whose had a strict, small-town upbringing in Pakistan. It's a way of preserving traditional values maybe(?).

Maybe if you're in another nation and don't want to lose your own traditions and culture you might actually be more conservative and hard-line than you normally would. As an example, when I spent months on end in America I would happily get up at 4:30am with a few other ex-pats, drive 45 mins to a British pub and sit and watch the football on Saturday morning, while having an English breakfast. I'd never go through all that crap over here! Especially not after a night out on the Friday. Fucking madness. And it's not like American culture is much different from ours. Maybe Westernised Muslims are a little like that. They over-compensate to cling on to anything they feel preserves their identity or traditional culture.

[Dick Moby]

Now I'm worried Sam.You're not having fantasies about men in mini kilts are you? !love!

[Sam Slater]

You wish! !laugh!

[max_tranmere]

Sam, as you say the US and UK cultures are similar, and by moving to the USA you are not chosing to live in a place very differnt from here. I never understand why people who come from a totally differnt culture and way of doing things chose to move here when they know the way of doing things here is very differnt and they are not going to adapt to it. Why come? Unless it is for all the things they can get here.

[bogwort]

"I think it's silly to say Muslims in this county don't want to integrate"

I had to work in Oldham for approx 14 months, living there during the week.

During this time I also had to frequently work in the town of Rochdale next to Oldham.

Do this, observe the situation in these places, speak to the people there ( white and asian), then lets see how silly you think it is.

Regardless of the reasons for it marriage/religion/education I maintain the asian community doesn't want to integrate.