Having had over 40 years of doing business in Europe, my reading of the facts on the ground - as opposed to the spin peddled by the Tories, the Tory press and other little Englanders - is that most people in Europe are generally better satisfied with the EU and the euro than dissatisfied.
Obviously there are those in the eurozone totally opposed to federalism and monetary union and the anti EU press in the UK jump on the stories of and from them and put on a massive amount of spin.
Please explain what is wrong with monetary union with a cohesive fiscal policy across a range of nations to benefit all, depriving bankers of their usurious rates of commission and charges for currency conversion making doing business chaper and simpler and allowing people in one area able to easily compare prices of goods from one supplier with those from the same supplier in another?
What is wrong with a political union that stops European wars?
What is wrong with the Germans using their particular skills and financial strength to help farmers in the east European wheat belt provide food for Europe and the world?
What is so particularly great about Great Britain in 2010 that makes you think it, a small island with a growing population and, since the 1980s, little manufacturing to speak of - and most of that controlled from abroad - can afford to continue on its own?
If you think my ideas are communistic then so were those of George Washington, Benjamin Franklin and the others who thought out the US Constitution. Try running that past members of the GOP.
I've just come back from Brasil, my second vist in 9 months. Along with Russia, China and India that country is going to be a major factor in world economics and politics. For any European country, wedged between BRIC and the USA/Japan, to have a say, influence how the world works and have economic status in the next 30 - 50 years it will need to be a fully integrated and functioning member of a bloc. The EU is the only logical option, just as a federal USA was the only option for the original 13 States and the 37 that joined later.
Ireland goes pop...
-
andy at handiwork
- Posts: 4113
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Ireland goes pop...
What a refreshing and welcome antidote to the usual anti Europe diatribes we regularly find on here.
-
max_tranmere
- Posts: 4734
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Ireland goes pop...
Watch this clip, filmed yesterday on a mobile phone outside the Parliament building in Dublin. If this had happened in London or Washington the driver would likely have been shot and his vehicle blown-up. I am impressed with how the Police cars arrive within 45 seconds.
Re: Ireland goes pop...
"Having had over 40 years of doing business in Europe, my reading of the facts on the ground - as opposed to the spin peddled by the Tories, the Tory press and other little Englanders - is that most people in Europe are generally better satisfied with the EU and the euro than dissatisfied.
Now't wrong with being a "little Englader", try tell a guy from Cork, 'he's a little Irisher' I'm sure he would be proud of that, also define "Tory Press" my neighbour has a farm up the road from me, we go for a drink, he still sprouts on about how great Brown was, yet he reads the mail, he brings it in the pub to read....go figure!. At the present moment, I agree with your comments about the punt, however it would have been and still would be a disaster for the UK to join the Euro..
Now't wrong with being a "little Englader", try tell a guy from Cork, 'he's a little Irisher' I'm sure he would be proud of that, also define "Tory Press" my neighbour has a farm up the road from me, we go for a drink, he still sprouts on about how great Brown was, yet he reads the mail, he brings it in the pub to read....go figure!. At the present moment, I agree with your comments about the punt, however it would have been and still would be a disaster for the UK to join the Euro..
[_]> No Liberals were harmed during the making of this post.
Re: Ireland goes pop...
"Having had over 40 years of doing business in Europe, my reading of the facts on the ground - as opposed to the spin peddled by the Tories, the Tory press and other little Englanders - is that most people in Europe are generally better satisfied with the EU and the euro than dissatisfied."
Then why was the EU constitution rejected when it was put to referenda in European countries in 2005?
"Please explain what is wrong with monetary union with........."
It has no democratic mandate to become a superstate, something which you seem to blithely skim over.
"What is so particularly great about Great Britain in 2010 that makes you think it, a small island with a growing population and, since the 1980s, little manufacturing to speak of - and most of that controlled from abroad - can afford to continue on its own?"
Britain has the 6th largest manufacturing output in the world, perhaps equate yourself with the facts first.
Then why was the EU constitution rejected when it was put to referenda in European countries in 2005?
"Please explain what is wrong with monetary union with........."
It has no democratic mandate to become a superstate, something which you seem to blithely skim over.
"What is so particularly great about Great Britain in 2010 that makes you think it, a small island with a growing population and, since the 1980s, little manufacturing to speak of - and most of that controlled from abroad - can afford to continue on its own?"
Britain has the 6th largest manufacturing output in the world, perhaps equate yourself with the facts first.
-
Mysteryman
- Posts: 878
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Ireland goes pop...
"Then why was the EU constitution rejected when it was put to referenda in European countries in 2005?"
Look behind the obvious. In the "no" voting countries the voters were taking out their ire against their governments for home based policies. Of course there were many who felt they could lose their national identities at that point. Here in ireland most who voted first time against the Lisbon treaty admitted it was to slap the government, not walk away from Europe.
"Please explain what is wrong with monetary union with........
It has no democratic mandate to become a superstate, something which you seem to blithely skim over."
I'm not blithely skimming over anything. The reality of the future is large socio-economic/monetary groupings.
"Britain has the 6th largest manufacturing output in the world, perhaps equate yourself with the facts first."
Let me ACQUAINT you with the fact that the bulk of the UK manufacturing output is carried out by foreign companies extracting their profits to economies elsewhere. Any and every one of them could up sticks and go if they decided it would be cheaper to manufacture elsewhere.
The manufacturing output is also dependant on a massive import of part finished goods and components from suppliers abroad, either within the same group of companies or from outside sources. Compared with 35 years ago the UK is far more dependant on foriegn companies for raw materials, first and second stage product processing and a great deal of component parts and has lost its manufacturing independence.
Look at the latest output figures. In 2008 Britain may have been 6th in output but its growth rate in every significant area does not feature in the top 50 and in many areas in the top 100 countries (source Index Mundi).
Whilst service industries have blossomed, manufacturing is in the gift of a handful of major non British multinationals which have in their control the remaining thousands of tiny and medium sized UK businesses which supply components packaging, transport and back up services which can, and will be, replaced as and when it suits the powers that be in the HQs in Germany, India, the USA and Japan and soon in China and Russia.
Those are the FACTS with which you need to urgently ACQUAINT yourself.
Look behind the obvious. In the "no" voting countries the voters were taking out their ire against their governments for home based policies. Of course there were many who felt they could lose their national identities at that point. Here in ireland most who voted first time against the Lisbon treaty admitted it was to slap the government, not walk away from Europe.
"Please explain what is wrong with monetary union with........
It has no democratic mandate to become a superstate, something which you seem to blithely skim over."
I'm not blithely skimming over anything. The reality of the future is large socio-economic/monetary groupings.
"Britain has the 6th largest manufacturing output in the world, perhaps equate yourself with the facts first."
Let me ACQUAINT you with the fact that the bulk of the UK manufacturing output is carried out by foreign companies extracting their profits to economies elsewhere. Any and every one of them could up sticks and go if they decided it would be cheaper to manufacture elsewhere.
The manufacturing output is also dependant on a massive import of part finished goods and components from suppliers abroad, either within the same group of companies or from outside sources. Compared with 35 years ago the UK is far more dependant on foriegn companies for raw materials, first and second stage product processing and a great deal of component parts and has lost its manufacturing independence.
Look at the latest output figures. In 2008 Britain may have been 6th in output but its growth rate in every significant area does not feature in the top 50 and in many areas in the top 100 countries (source Index Mundi).
Whilst service industries have blossomed, manufacturing is in the gift of a handful of major non British multinationals which have in their control the remaining thousands of tiny and medium sized UK businesses which supply components packaging, transport and back up services which can, and will be, replaced as and when it suits the powers that be in the HQs in Germany, India, the USA and Japan and soon in China and Russia.
Those are the FACTS with which you need to urgently ACQUAINT yourself.
Re: Ireland goes pop...
Mysteryman:
I agree with you about the cronyism in Irish politics. Did anyone ever find out where Charlie Haughey got his money from? The head of Anglo-Irish Bank apparently borrowed 77 million euros from it, and is now bankrupt. Where did that money go? I'm sure it bought a lot of political favours.
However, I disagree with you about the effect of the euro on Ireland. Going into the euro meant Ireland had to have the same interest rate as Germany. Irish interest rates went down, and the inevitable result in the go-go years was a property boom. Exactly the same thing happened in Spain and Portugal. Ireland could have kept its own currency and its own interest rates, instead it has been crucified by the euro. If Britain had done this to Ireland there would have been a war, strangely enough the fact that the ECB did it seems to make it all right. Ireland is being crushed because of monetary union, not saved by it.
I agree with you about the cronyism in Irish politics. Did anyone ever find out where Charlie Haughey got his money from? The head of Anglo-Irish Bank apparently borrowed 77 million euros from it, and is now bankrupt. Where did that money go? I'm sure it bought a lot of political favours.
However, I disagree with you about the effect of the euro on Ireland. Going into the euro meant Ireland had to have the same interest rate as Germany. Irish interest rates went down, and the inevitable result in the go-go years was a property boom. Exactly the same thing happened in Spain and Portugal. Ireland could have kept its own currency and its own interest rates, instead it has been crucified by the euro. If Britain had done this to Ireland there would have been a war, strangely enough the fact that the ECB did it seems to make it all right. Ireland is being crushed because of monetary union, not saved by it.
Re: Ireland goes pop...
"Look behind the obvious. In the "no" voting countries the voters were taking out their ire against their governments for home based policies. Of course there were many who felt they could lose their national identities at that point. Here in ireland most who voted first time against the Lisbon treaty admitted it was to slap the government, not walk away from Europe."
Oh I see, all we need is you to interpret why the No votes were actually Yes votes, you could probably work for the EU comission, or the politburo 40 years ago.
"I'm not blithely skimming over anything. The reality of the future is large socio-economic/monetary groupings."
He said while bithely skimming over it again - what you mean is the political elite want the future to be large economic groupings as it enables them to make lots of money, control lots mor epeople and ignore democratic votes as per above.
" Let me ACQUAINT you with the fact that the bulk of the UK manufacturing output is carried out by foreign companies extracting their profits to economies elsewhere. Any and every one of them could up sticks and go if they decided it would be cheaper to manufacture elsewhere."
You seem to make things up off the top of your head in every post - the bulk of UK manufacturing is not foreign owned at all, and foreign investment is a good thing for an economy not a bad thing, attracting foreign investment is somethign far easier for an independent country to do then a sector of a huge trading block.
"2008 Britain may have been 6th in output but its growth rate in every significant area does not feature in the top 50 and in many areas in the top 100 countries"
Growth is only relevant when accounted with the size of the economy, so idiotic to measure against another 100 countries, if Moldova exports 4 pencils a month, then starts exporting 8 pencils a month its growth rate is 100%, it means feck all.
"Whilst service industries have blossomed, manufacturing is in the gift of a handful of major non British multinationals which have in their control the remaining thousands of tiny and medium sized UK businesses which supply components packaging, transport and back up services which can, and will be, replaced as and when it suits the powers that be in the HQs in Germany, India, the USA and Japan and soon in China and Russia."
What utter rot, some of the largest companies in the world are UK based, BP, Glaxosmithkline, Astrazeneca, not to mention the Defence industry, BAE etc.
I think its Britain you have a problem with tbh.
Oh I see, all we need is you to interpret why the No votes were actually Yes votes, you could probably work for the EU comission, or the politburo 40 years ago.
"I'm not blithely skimming over anything. The reality of the future is large socio-economic/monetary groupings."
He said while bithely skimming over it again - what you mean is the political elite want the future to be large economic groupings as it enables them to make lots of money, control lots mor epeople and ignore democratic votes as per above.
" Let me ACQUAINT you with the fact that the bulk of the UK manufacturing output is carried out by foreign companies extracting their profits to economies elsewhere. Any and every one of them could up sticks and go if they decided it would be cheaper to manufacture elsewhere."
You seem to make things up off the top of your head in every post - the bulk of UK manufacturing is not foreign owned at all, and foreign investment is a good thing for an economy not a bad thing, attracting foreign investment is somethign far easier for an independent country to do then a sector of a huge trading block.
"2008 Britain may have been 6th in output but its growth rate in every significant area does not feature in the top 50 and in many areas in the top 100 countries"
Growth is only relevant when accounted with the size of the economy, so idiotic to measure against another 100 countries, if Moldova exports 4 pencils a month, then starts exporting 8 pencils a month its growth rate is 100%, it means feck all.
"Whilst service industries have blossomed, manufacturing is in the gift of a handful of major non British multinationals which have in their control the remaining thousands of tiny and medium sized UK businesses which supply components packaging, transport and back up services which can, and will be, replaced as and when it suits the powers that be in the HQs in Germany, India, the USA and Japan and soon in China and Russia."
What utter rot, some of the largest companies in the world are UK based, BP, Glaxosmithkline, Astrazeneca, not to mention the Defence industry, BAE etc.
I think its Britain you have a problem with tbh.
-
Mysteryman
- Posts: 878
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Ireland goes pop...
Helpfairy, 45 years of working in and with British industry and trading round the world have taught me a lot you have obviously still to learn.
Let's just take one company you take as a shining example of a British company - BAe Systems. BAe used to mean British Aerospace.. It employed thousands, many of whom were talented aerospace designers, technicians and assembly workers.
It produced a range of aircraft, missiles and defence systems as well as submarines.
Technically it is still a leader in some fields but its submarine division in Barrow only builds for the UK and the need for its products is in doubt.
Its range of other defence equipment, whilst technically brilliant is restricted to a number of acceptable customers. The Eurofighter was designed for a threat that no longer exists and the orders have not come in in the numbers expected and its sales potential is limited for political reasons.
The latest version of Nimrod is likely to be scrapped and on the civil side, BAe decided in the light of 9/11 that the market for 70 - 100 seat airliners would be wiped out and cancelled the RJX project with just a handful of airframes built, but plenty of orders and options. Basically they didn't want to build airliners any more.
So, as a result the Canadians made hay selling 641 examples of the larger versions of their CRJ 70 -100 seaters whilst Embraer in Brazil designed new 70- 100 seaters and have sold them in hundreds.
By June this year there was a backlog of 227 firm orders for the Embraer Jets and 672 options. The manufacturer reported that 652 units had been delivered by June 30, 2010, and predicted that by the end of 2016, more than 1,100 units would be delivered.
The Russians have entered the market with the Sukhoi 100 and it is already being evaluated by a number of west European airlines after a good reception at Farnborough and is priced to appeal to third world airlines, where the BAe 146, the original version of the BAe RJX sold extremely well.
What an opportunity lost.
The aircraft designers, engineers and many of the construction workers have taken their skills to Toulouse, Seattle, Toronto and Sao Paulo, some even work now for Sukhoi. Where ever they went their skills and the skill base has been lost to the UK forever.
What a wate of talent.
As for some of the biggest companies in the world being UK based, let's just look at the top 30 UK companies by capitalisation operating in the UK.
Top is Royal Dutch Shell, foreign owned. HSBC is next and that is British in name only, the CEO is Hong Kong based and the majorm shareholders are in the far east. Of the next 28 only 11 are involved in manufacture and most of their work is carried out overseas. The rest are banks, financial institutions, service companies and food retailers.
Many of the top 30 are foreign owned in whole or in the major part.
Britain relies on foreign owned companies for most of its transport and infrastructue, either producing in their British factories or by sourcing abroad. Many of the products bought at all levels of the economy are traceable back to non UK owned companies and the UK has a trade deficit in real terms that would have caused panic 30 years ago.
By all means stay in your cosy fairy land. In my lifetime I've seen too many economic crises, too many promises of jam tomorrow if we take the pain now, from R A Butler, through Callaghan to Major and here in Ireland from Lenihan, to believe any of it. I've traded around the world with companies, institutions and governments and have seen just how "the markets" are manipulated for the gain of the few.
The euro may not be the perfect solution, the EU may not be the best but, as Churchill said of democracy they are the best systems we have.
Without the eurozone, Greece, Portugal, Spain and now Ireland would be in real turmoil as each currency could not have been sustainable on its own. Though the low EU interest rates may have stimulated an unsustainable boom, the unity of the zone should see the currency and the poorer coubntries through and the current crises highlight the need for a single EU fiscal policy where all share the good and the bad equally.
If we are to have multinational companies feeding economies, we need a fiscal control which evens out the differences between national economies.
If you want to know just how difficult things could be in the UK read this:
http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews ... 0622.shtml
and this, which whilst it has some optimism for the UK is far from rosy:
http://europe.pimco.com/LeftNav/Global+ ... the+UK.htm
Let's just take one company you take as a shining example of a British company - BAe Systems. BAe used to mean British Aerospace.. It employed thousands, many of whom were talented aerospace designers, technicians and assembly workers.
It produced a range of aircraft, missiles and defence systems as well as submarines.
Technically it is still a leader in some fields but its submarine division in Barrow only builds for the UK and the need for its products is in doubt.
Its range of other defence equipment, whilst technically brilliant is restricted to a number of acceptable customers. The Eurofighter was designed for a threat that no longer exists and the orders have not come in in the numbers expected and its sales potential is limited for political reasons.
The latest version of Nimrod is likely to be scrapped and on the civil side, BAe decided in the light of 9/11 that the market for 70 - 100 seat airliners would be wiped out and cancelled the RJX project with just a handful of airframes built, but plenty of orders and options. Basically they didn't want to build airliners any more.
So, as a result the Canadians made hay selling 641 examples of the larger versions of their CRJ 70 -100 seaters whilst Embraer in Brazil designed new 70- 100 seaters and have sold them in hundreds.
By June this year there was a backlog of 227 firm orders for the Embraer Jets and 672 options. The manufacturer reported that 652 units had been delivered by June 30, 2010, and predicted that by the end of 2016, more than 1,100 units would be delivered.
The Russians have entered the market with the Sukhoi 100 and it is already being evaluated by a number of west European airlines after a good reception at Farnborough and is priced to appeal to third world airlines, where the BAe 146, the original version of the BAe RJX sold extremely well.
What an opportunity lost.
The aircraft designers, engineers and many of the construction workers have taken their skills to Toulouse, Seattle, Toronto and Sao Paulo, some even work now for Sukhoi. Where ever they went their skills and the skill base has been lost to the UK forever.
What a wate of talent.
As for some of the biggest companies in the world being UK based, let's just look at the top 30 UK companies by capitalisation operating in the UK.
Top is Royal Dutch Shell, foreign owned. HSBC is next and that is British in name only, the CEO is Hong Kong based and the majorm shareholders are in the far east. Of the next 28 only 11 are involved in manufacture and most of their work is carried out overseas. The rest are banks, financial institutions, service companies and food retailers.
Many of the top 30 are foreign owned in whole or in the major part.
Britain relies on foreign owned companies for most of its transport and infrastructue, either producing in their British factories or by sourcing abroad. Many of the products bought at all levels of the economy are traceable back to non UK owned companies and the UK has a trade deficit in real terms that would have caused panic 30 years ago.
By all means stay in your cosy fairy land. In my lifetime I've seen too many economic crises, too many promises of jam tomorrow if we take the pain now, from R A Butler, through Callaghan to Major and here in Ireland from Lenihan, to believe any of it. I've traded around the world with companies, institutions and governments and have seen just how "the markets" are manipulated for the gain of the few.
The euro may not be the perfect solution, the EU may not be the best but, as Churchill said of democracy they are the best systems we have.
Without the eurozone, Greece, Portugal, Spain and now Ireland would be in real turmoil as each currency could not have been sustainable on its own. Though the low EU interest rates may have stimulated an unsustainable boom, the unity of the zone should see the currency and the poorer coubntries through and the current crises highlight the need for a single EU fiscal policy where all share the good and the bad equally.
If we are to have multinational companies feeding economies, we need a fiscal control which evens out the differences between national economies.
If you want to know just how difficult things could be in the UK read this:
http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews ... 0622.shtml
and this, which whilst it has some optimism for the UK is far from rosy:
http://europe.pimco.com/LeftNav/Global+ ... the+UK.htm
Re: Ireland goes pop...
Mysteryman wrote:
>
> The euro may not be the perfect solution, the EU may not be the
> best but, as Churchill said of democracy they are the best
> systems we have.
>
> Without the eurozone, Greece, Portugal, Spain and now Ireland
> would be in real turmoil as each currency could not have been
> sustainable on its own. Though the low EU interest rates may
> have stimulated an unsustainable boom, the unity of the zone
> should see the currency and the poorer coubntries through and
> the current crises highlight the need for a single EU fiscal
> policy where all share the good and the bad equally.
Sorry, I can't agree. Without the euro, the PIGS would have had interest rates and exchange rates suitable to their economies. If necessary, they would have defaulted on their loans. Greece has done it loads of times, and the sky didn't fall in. Anyone daft enough to lend to the Greek government should have known the risks. But with the euro, that could not happen. In theory, a Greek bond in euros was as safe as a German bond in euros, which is a complete fiction. But if the PIGS default, the euro will be fucked, so from the point of view of the EU, better the citizens of a few small and unimportant states get fucked instead. I think it's a real shame that Ireland fought for independence from Britain, just to give it all away again, but that's what happened. Ireland is an unimportant province of the EU, and will suffer accordingly.
>
> The euro may not be the perfect solution, the EU may not be the
> best but, as Churchill said of democracy they are the best
> systems we have.
>
> Without the eurozone, Greece, Portugal, Spain and now Ireland
> would be in real turmoil as each currency could not have been
> sustainable on its own. Though the low EU interest rates may
> have stimulated an unsustainable boom, the unity of the zone
> should see the currency and the poorer coubntries through and
> the current crises highlight the need for a single EU fiscal
> policy where all share the good and the bad equally.
Sorry, I can't agree. Without the euro, the PIGS would have had interest rates and exchange rates suitable to their economies. If necessary, they would have defaulted on their loans. Greece has done it loads of times, and the sky didn't fall in. Anyone daft enough to lend to the Greek government should have known the risks. But with the euro, that could not happen. In theory, a Greek bond in euros was as safe as a German bond in euros, which is a complete fiction. But if the PIGS default, the euro will be fucked, so from the point of view of the EU, better the citizens of a few small and unimportant states get fucked instead. I think it's a real shame that Ireland fought for independence from Britain, just to give it all away again, but that's what happened. Ireland is an unimportant province of the EU, and will suffer accordingly.