"the reason that their religion matters is because muslim people always demand changes when they arrive in another country. There are also loyalty issues. Muslim people dont believe in Freedom of Speech to the same extent as most Westerners do, nor do they believe in equal rights for women, gay people, and so on. Their holy book tells them they must feel close allegience to other muslims, wherever they are, more so than towards people who are not muslim in the country they have settled. "
Bit of a generalisation here, if you don't mind me saying.
Word of warning. Keep an eye out for those born again Christians. Dodgy every single one of them. Invade your country as soon as look at you.
And as for Seventh Day Adventists. Just don't get me started.
Cheers
D
Cameron goes Turkey crazy!
Re: Max
David Johnson wrote:
> Word of warning. Keep an eye out for those born again
> Christians. Dodgy every single one of them. Invade your
> country as soon as look at you.
>
> And as for Seventh Day Adventists. Just don't get me started.
I agree, complete and utter bastards every one of them. Always setting off bombs, flying planes into buildings and killing women for "honour".
> Word of warning. Keep an eye out for those born again
> Christians. Dodgy every single one of them. Invade your
> country as soon as look at you.
>
> And as for Seventh Day Adventists. Just don't get me started.
I agree, complete and utter bastards every one of them. Always setting off bombs, flying planes into buildings and killing women for "honour".
-
David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Robches
"I agree, complete and utter bastards every one of them. Always setting off bombs, flying planes into buildings and killing women for "honour"."
Yes flying planes into buildings, never a week goes past without them doing that. Ah yes, that Raoul Moat. Those whites are always killing women for "honour". Only this week in Blackpool, a paramedic split up with a female nurse and slit her throat in the car park of the local hospital. That will sort her out for taking the piss eh?
And as for those Aarabs, all we did was invade Iraq in an illegal invasion and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis. What's wrong with these Arabs?
And as for Afghanistan, those Russians invade and kill tens of thousands. Then the US and UK fund the Afghans religious fundamentalists in order to fight the Russians. Then the bastards take over the country using our weapons and then they fight us when we invade their country. Have these Arabs not got any sense of fairness?
Ah yes, my guess would be that the English Defence League members and BNP members have pretty much as many convictions for bomb plots as Muslims have in the UK.
I bow to your greater powers of understanding Robches.
Cheers
D
Yes flying planes into buildings, never a week goes past without them doing that. Ah yes, that Raoul Moat. Those whites are always killing women for "honour". Only this week in Blackpool, a paramedic split up with a female nurse and slit her throat in the car park of the local hospital. That will sort her out for taking the piss eh?
And as for those Aarabs, all we did was invade Iraq in an illegal invasion and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis. What's wrong with these Arabs?
And as for Afghanistan, those Russians invade and kill tens of thousands. Then the US and UK fund the Afghans religious fundamentalists in order to fight the Russians. Then the bastards take over the country using our weapons and then they fight us when we invade their country. Have these Arabs not got any sense of fairness?
Ah yes, my guess would be that the English Defence League members and BNP members have pretty much as many convictions for bomb plots as Muslims have in the UK.
I bow to your greater powers of understanding Robches.
Cheers
D
Re: Cameron goes Turkey crazy!
Sorry, but your attempt to equate certain Christian religious groups you obviously dislike with the various Muslim terror groups who are active in the world, murdering anyone they disagree with, from British soldiers in Afghanistan to Christian schoolgirls in the Phillipines, is downright asinine.
As for Afghanistan, the reason the US and UK invaded was because that was where 9/11 was planned. If the Taliban had not offered sanctuary to Al Quaeda, there would have been no invasion, however unpleasant their regime was (and it was very unpleasant indeed).
As for Afghanistan, the reason the US and UK invaded was because that was where 9/11 was planned. If the Taliban had not offered sanctuary to Al Quaeda, there would have been no invasion, however unpleasant their regime was (and it was very unpleasant indeed).
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David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Robches
"Sorry, but your attempt to equate certain Christian religious groups you obviously dislike with the various Muslim terror groups who are active in the world, murdering anyone they disagree with, from British soldiers in Afghanistan to Christian schoolgirls in the Phillipines, is downright asinine."
You seem not only to struggle with the concept of threads, but also with understanding an argument.
Am I accusing Christian religious groups of flying planes into buildings? No I am not.
What I am saying is that to generalise about an entire religion, based on the actions of a minority is bonkers. If I was a Muslim in Blackburn and I took a story about Christian fundamentalists shooting an abortion clinic doctor and then extrapolated from that to say "We don't want Christians here in our street, they are all violent killers", you Robches and Max because you are from an allegedly Christian country would regard me as bonkers.
Yet this is exactly what Max does all the time with regard to Muslims as is obvious from the quote below.
Max said "the reason that their religion matters is because muslim people always demand changes when they arrive in another country. There are also loyalty issues. Muslim people dont believe in Freedom of Speech to the same extent as most Westerners do, nor do they believe in equal rights for women, gay people, and so on"
None of the Muslims I have met have ever demanded changes. But yet because one or more Muslims might have at some point, Max tars the entire religion with the same brush.
I note with interest that you mention Afghanistan but not Iraq. Interesting use of selectivity eh? Because the illegal invasion of Iraq by Britain and the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims, far more than the number killed by terror groups I would have thought, doesn't fit your argument, lets not mention it eh?
Cheers
D
You seem not only to struggle with the concept of threads, but also with understanding an argument.
Am I accusing Christian religious groups of flying planes into buildings? No I am not.
What I am saying is that to generalise about an entire religion, based on the actions of a minority is bonkers. If I was a Muslim in Blackburn and I took a story about Christian fundamentalists shooting an abortion clinic doctor and then extrapolated from that to say "We don't want Christians here in our street, they are all violent killers", you Robches and Max because you are from an allegedly Christian country would regard me as bonkers.
Yet this is exactly what Max does all the time with regard to Muslims as is obvious from the quote below.
Max said "the reason that their religion matters is because muslim people always demand changes when they arrive in another country. There are also loyalty issues. Muslim people dont believe in Freedom of Speech to the same extent as most Westerners do, nor do they believe in equal rights for women, gay people, and so on"
None of the Muslims I have met have ever demanded changes. But yet because one or more Muslims might have at some point, Max tars the entire religion with the same brush.
I note with interest that you mention Afghanistan but not Iraq. Interesting use of selectivity eh? Because the illegal invasion of Iraq by Britain and the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims, far more than the number killed by terror groups I would have thought, doesn't fit your argument, lets not mention it eh?
Cheers
D
Re: Cameron goes Turkey crazy!
I didn't mention Iraq because people like you bore the arse off me going on about "illegal wars" as if you are the Nuremburg Tribunals. But you might care to concede that the Taliban gave sanctuary to AQ at least? The US and UK were so aggressive towards the Muslim world that they didn't do anything about the Taliban until planes flew into the World Trade Center. How about that for an act of war?
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David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Cameron goes Turkey crazy!
Still havent managed to understand how threads work I see. If I get around to it, I will give you some tips, if you like.
You said
"I didn't mention Iraq because people like you bore the arse off me going on about "illegal wars" as if you are the Nuremburg Tribunals."
This is nonsense. You are humiliating yourself in this dicussion. The vast majority of international lawyers outside of the invading countries, as well as the head of the UN at the time believed the invasion to be illegal.
I repeat you may choose to dismiss the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis as "you bore the arse off me going on about illegal wars"
but it doesnt invalidate my argument.
"US and UK were so aggressive towards the Muslim world that they didn't do anything about the Taliban until planes flew into the World Trade Center."
No, in fact the UK and US funded the extremist fundamentalists. This doesn't make the invasion of Iraq disappear though, does it?
Cheers
D
You said
"I didn't mention Iraq because people like you bore the arse off me going on about "illegal wars" as if you are the Nuremburg Tribunals."
This is nonsense. You are humiliating yourself in this dicussion. The vast majority of international lawyers outside of the invading countries, as well as the head of the UN at the time believed the invasion to be illegal.
I repeat you may choose to dismiss the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis as "you bore the arse off me going on about illegal wars"
but it doesnt invalidate my argument.
"US and UK were so aggressive towards the Muslim world that they didn't do anything about the Taliban until planes flew into the World Trade Center."
No, in fact the UK and US funded the extremist fundamentalists. This doesn't make the invasion of Iraq disappear though, does it?
Cheers
D
Re: Cameron goes Turkey crazy!
David Johnson wrote:
> Still havent managed to understand how threads work I see. If
> I get around to it, I will give you some tips, if you like.
Snide snide snide, the same old story. Boring!
>
> You said
> "I didn't mention Iraq because people like you bore the arse
> off me going on about "illegal wars" as if you are the
> Nuremburg Tribunals."
>
> This is nonsense. You are humiliating yourself in this
> dicussion. The vast majority of international lawyers outside
> of the invading countries, as well as the head of the UN at the
> time believed the invasion to be illegal.
And that's why I don't want to discuss this with you, we will never agree so what's the point?
>
> I repeat you may choose to dismiss the deaths of hundreds of
> thousands of innocent Iraqis as "you bore the arse off me going
> on about illegal wars"
> but it doesnt invalidate my argument.
>
> "US and UK were so aggressive towards the Muslim world that
> they didn't do anything about the Taliban until planes flew
> into the World Trade Center."
>
> No, in fact the UK and US funded the extremist
> fundamentalists. This doesn't make the invasion of Iraq
> disappear though, does it?
This is your world view it seems: the west is always wrong. Muslim terrorists fly planes into the World Trade Center, but it's our fault because we armed them. What with, Boeings? Are you for real?
> Still havent managed to understand how threads work I see. If
> I get around to it, I will give you some tips, if you like.
Snide snide snide, the same old story. Boring!
>
> You said
> "I didn't mention Iraq because people like you bore the arse
> off me going on about "illegal wars" as if you are the
> Nuremburg Tribunals."
>
> This is nonsense. You are humiliating yourself in this
> dicussion. The vast majority of international lawyers outside
> of the invading countries, as well as the head of the UN at the
> time believed the invasion to be illegal.
And that's why I don't want to discuss this with you, we will never agree so what's the point?
>
> I repeat you may choose to dismiss the deaths of hundreds of
> thousands of innocent Iraqis as "you bore the arse off me going
> on about illegal wars"
> but it doesnt invalidate my argument.
>
> "US and UK were so aggressive towards the Muslim world that
> they didn't do anything about the Taliban until planes flew
> into the World Trade Center."
>
> No, in fact the UK and US funded the extremist
> fundamentalists. This doesn't make the invasion of Iraq
> disappear though, does it?
This is your world view it seems: the west is always wrong. Muslim terrorists fly planes into the World Trade Center, but it's our fault because we armed them. What with, Boeings? Are you for real?
-
David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Robches
"This is your world view it seems: the west is always wrong. "
No. This is clearly nonsense and something I have never stated.
I have frequently said that terrorism wherever it comes from needs to be fought.
"Muslim terrorists fly planes into the World Trade Center, but it's our fault because we armed them."
No. This is clearly nonsense.
The point I am trying to get you to understand is that it is not as simplistic as you seem to believe. The west did train and arm the mujaheddin in Afghanistan at the time of the Russian invasion. Because at that time the Russians were the big enemy. These were the very same individuals who later formed the basis of the Taliban.
Similarly, the West helped to arm and train Saddam Hussein's army because the West wanted to see secular Iraq defeat the Ayatollah's Iran.
Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan have all suffered to varying extents over the decades as a result of the West's geopolitical ambitions.
Does that make it defensible for extremists to fly planes into the World Trade Centre? No it doesn't, but it helps to explain why such horrendous events can happen.
The point I am making is very simple. You cannot extrapolate from the actions of a small number of extremists in order to tarnish an entire religion whether they be Muslim or Christian extremists. This is what Max does. This is what my point is.
Reading your contributions to this thread, it is not clear in any way what your point is.
Perhaps you can attempt to summarise your point in a sentence?
CHeers
D
No. This is clearly nonsense and something I have never stated.
I have frequently said that terrorism wherever it comes from needs to be fought.
"Muslim terrorists fly planes into the World Trade Center, but it's our fault because we armed them."
No. This is clearly nonsense.
The point I am trying to get you to understand is that it is not as simplistic as you seem to believe. The west did train and arm the mujaheddin in Afghanistan at the time of the Russian invasion. Because at that time the Russians were the big enemy. These were the very same individuals who later formed the basis of the Taliban.
Similarly, the West helped to arm and train Saddam Hussein's army because the West wanted to see secular Iraq defeat the Ayatollah's Iran.
Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan have all suffered to varying extents over the decades as a result of the West's geopolitical ambitions.
Does that make it defensible for extremists to fly planes into the World Trade Centre? No it doesn't, but it helps to explain why such horrendous events can happen.
The point I am making is very simple. You cannot extrapolate from the actions of a small number of extremists in order to tarnish an entire religion whether they be Muslim or Christian extremists. This is what Max does. This is what my point is.
Reading your contributions to this thread, it is not clear in any way what your point is.
Perhaps you can attempt to summarise your point in a sentence?
CHeers
D
Re: Robches
David Johnson wrote:
> The point I am trying to get you to understand is that it is
> not as simplistic as you seem to believe. The west did train
> and arm the mujaheddin in Afghanistan at the time of the
> Russian invasion. Because at that time the Russians were the
> big enemy. These were the very same individuals who later
> formed the basis of the Taliban.
Really? Not the Northern Alliance? They did the heavy lifting against the Russians, and the Taliban/AQ murdered their leader just before 9/11. It may amaze you, but the west was not the only player in arming the Muj. There are a lot of very rich Saudis (such as Bin Laden) who got in on the act. They didn't need money or permission from the USA to arm their friends in Afghanistan.
> Similarly, the West helped to arm and train Saddam Hussein's
> army because the West wanted to see secular Iraq defeat the
> Ayatollah's Iran.
Saddam Hussein's army was almost exclusively equipped with Soviet bloc weapons, although the French sold him some stuff. The west didn't arm him to any great extent, he had the money to buy his own arms, he was a big boy, who had an unfortunate habit of invading his neighbours. This was why, in the final analysis, he was removed. There was no way to deal with him, he was a snake.
> Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan have all suffered to varying extents
> over the decades as a result of the West's geopolitical
> ambitions.
>
> Does that make it defensible for extremists to fly planes into
> the World Trade Centre? No it doesn't, but it helps to explain
> why such horrendous events can happen.
That will be why most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi citizens then will it? Face it, they were Muslim fanatics. Saudi Arabia was never a European colony, it was never oppressed or exploited by the west, but that's not the point for these people. It's about their religion.
> The point I am making is very simple. You cannot extrapolate
> from the actions of a small number of extremists in order to
> tarnish an entire religion whether they be Muslim or Christian
> extremists. This is what Max does. This is what my point is.
One day they will be sawing your head off and you will still be trying to reason with them. I feel sorry for you, I really do.
> The point I am trying to get you to understand is that it is
> not as simplistic as you seem to believe. The west did train
> and arm the mujaheddin in Afghanistan at the time of the
> Russian invasion. Because at that time the Russians were the
> big enemy. These were the very same individuals who later
> formed the basis of the Taliban.
Really? Not the Northern Alliance? They did the heavy lifting against the Russians, and the Taliban/AQ murdered their leader just before 9/11. It may amaze you, but the west was not the only player in arming the Muj. There are a lot of very rich Saudis (such as Bin Laden) who got in on the act. They didn't need money or permission from the USA to arm their friends in Afghanistan.
> Similarly, the West helped to arm and train Saddam Hussein's
> army because the West wanted to see secular Iraq defeat the
> Ayatollah's Iran.
Saddam Hussein's army was almost exclusively equipped with Soviet bloc weapons, although the French sold him some stuff. The west didn't arm him to any great extent, he had the money to buy his own arms, he was a big boy, who had an unfortunate habit of invading his neighbours. This was why, in the final analysis, he was removed. There was no way to deal with him, he was a snake.
> Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan have all suffered to varying extents
> over the decades as a result of the West's geopolitical
> ambitions.
>
> Does that make it defensible for extremists to fly planes into
> the World Trade Centre? No it doesn't, but it helps to explain
> why such horrendous events can happen.
That will be why most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi citizens then will it? Face it, they were Muslim fanatics. Saudi Arabia was never a European colony, it was never oppressed or exploited by the west, but that's not the point for these people. It's about their religion.
> The point I am making is very simple. You cannot extrapolate
> from the actions of a small number of extremists in order to
> tarnish an entire religion whether they be Muslim or Christian
> extremists. This is what Max does. This is what my point is.
One day they will be sawing your head off and you will still be trying to reason with them. I feel sorry for you, I really do.