Reggie Perrin wrote:
> Are you being faux naif?
I'm so uneducated I don't even know what 'fox-naff' is.
I know what a faux par means so I guess it has something to do with making a mistake. 'Naif' might be connected with naive, so perhaps you're asking me if I'm being deliberately ignorant in order to start some contentious thread about Jews. Well, no. It's just a subject that has always confused me.
Jews? What is a Jew?
Re: Jews? What is a Jew?
Phwooorr...look at her....CRASH
-
Mysteryman
- Posts: 878
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Jews? What is a Jew?
Max's view of history and of Judaism is rather at odds with the facts.
Jewishness is, in its true sense, TOTALLY ethnic and refers to a person descended from a particular grouping which, compared to other races, has been kept relatively pure since the historic days of the tribes of Israel due to strict interpretation of marriage rules governed by the Jewish religion - a religion that doesn't proselytize and, even in the less Orthodox form, rarely accepts converts - the exceptions generally being due to conversions prior to marriage.
The Jewish nation was progressively dismantled after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 and the diaspora - the spread of the Jews around the world - led to Jewish populations throughout the Middle East, Europe and even east Africa, before the year 1000.
Whilst the Jewish nation disintegrated, the religion strengthened and bound members of the individual communities together. The people took their trades and skills with them, some prospered, some didn't but - like any non indigenous grouping in a foreign country - they were treated with a mixture of suspicion, sometimes fear and often loathing. In this they were not helped by religion. On the one hand Judaism, with its very tough rules regarding not only religious observance, but the very daily existence of each person, set Jews apart. Then, of course, Christians, from the inception of their religion, blamed every single Jew for the death of Jesus - an illogical standpoint but one used to great effect by bishops and kings to keep Jews "in their place".
Throughout the Middle Ages Jews were persecuted. They were banned from England for hundreds of years. Persecution continued in Eastern Europe, particularly under the Czars, into the 20th century so Hitler's vilification of the Jews was nothing more than a highly organised and very efficient extension of the measures taken against Jewish populations for well over a thousand years previously.
Currently the hatred of Jews by many in Islam and the criticism of Israel elsewhere stems from the arrogance of Zionism which teaches the inalienable right of the Jewish nation to hold onto Greater Israel "as given to them by God" to the exclusion of the Arabs who have lived there for centuries.
This was helped by Britain through the Balfour Declaration which after WW1 helped lay the foundations for the modern state of Israel - a process which was maintained through the British holding of the Palestine protectorate.
After WW2 there was much sympathy for the Jews after the revelations of what had been carried out under Hitler's "Final Solution". Though the British would have preferred to hand Palestine over to a mixed Jewish/Arab state, the actions of terrorist gangs in killing British troops, pressure from the USA, led by powerful Jewish groupings funding the US political parties, and the general consensus in the UK that Britain, in 1946/47, had enough problems of its own, led to the Zionists being able to found the state of Israel, under UN agreement, in 1948.
Ever since the Zionists have persecuted the Palestinians with vigour. How a nation that arose out of sympathy after its own ethnic people were so harshly treated could treat another ethnic group so badly defies any human comprehension.
In addition there is a mixture of envy and loathing of individual Jews at many levels around the world. From some it is because individual Jews have been extremely successful in commerce, banking, science or medicine. From others it is an irrational fear of someone different, for others it is due to bad experiences at the hands of a particular Jew as an employer or party in a business deal. In this, Jews receive no different treatment than other ethnic, non indigenous, group members but are more vocal in highlighting any perceived discrimination.
In modern times in the UK and US and parts of Europe Jewish groups and communities have been a force for good, have helped build strong commercial and scientific platforms enabling their countries to prosper whilst individuals have been valuable and influential members of the community. Look at how many politicians, scientists, medical experts and entertainers are Jewish and how many major British companies were founded by or are currently run by Jewish entrepreneurs.
However, underlying this is the fact that most Jews would attest to being Jewish before any other status of nationality. This is evident particularly in the USA.
Given the financial clout of the US based Jewish groups in the political and commercial sectors, the US has been sucked into protecting Israel and this has given it a power base in the area from which it can "protect" its interests in the region. Also, of course, there are those on the politico-religious Right in the US who see the US as being able to influence the Second Coming by being involved in Israel.
It is interesting to read Noam Chomsky, one of the most celebrated Jewish intellectuals of our time, on Judaism and its effects on US politics. Just last night he stated in a lecture in Dublin that he could only wonder at a system that allowed the United States to be led until recently by a "lunatic who is waiting for the Second Coming and permitted the abuse of power in the Middle East by the USA and Israel".
Jews, will always be an ethnic group until their inter marriage rules are so relaxed that, over centuries, their gene pool is as diluted as most other races which have been exposed to inter marriage. Their religion, in all its forms, will also set them apart in countries where Christianity or other religions, or none, is the norm.
Their great bond of community, even today, leads to "ghettos" which can alienate many and the erection of "eruvs" or boundaries by Orthodox Jewish communities in various cities, including London, helps set them apart and does nothing for integration.
So, in essence Max, Jews are genetically a distinct race, Judaism is a distinct religion and lifestyle and, in legal and human relationship terms, they should be treated no differently to anyone else and should not expect special treatment themselves. Indeed many of their social values are to be encouraged in an era of disrespect for the rule of law.
However, some Jews are more than happy to be set apart from the rest of the world. Like some Muslims, some Catholics and those of other beliefs who hold that they belong to a "chosen" grouping, they see themselves as having the only solution to life and its problems and regard those who do not accept their way as being damned - but then so does any belief system that came out of the deserts of the Middle East.
Jewishness is, in its true sense, TOTALLY ethnic and refers to a person descended from a particular grouping which, compared to other races, has been kept relatively pure since the historic days of the tribes of Israel due to strict interpretation of marriage rules governed by the Jewish religion - a religion that doesn't proselytize and, even in the less Orthodox form, rarely accepts converts - the exceptions generally being due to conversions prior to marriage.
The Jewish nation was progressively dismantled after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 and the diaspora - the spread of the Jews around the world - led to Jewish populations throughout the Middle East, Europe and even east Africa, before the year 1000.
Whilst the Jewish nation disintegrated, the religion strengthened and bound members of the individual communities together. The people took their trades and skills with them, some prospered, some didn't but - like any non indigenous grouping in a foreign country - they were treated with a mixture of suspicion, sometimes fear and often loathing. In this they were not helped by religion. On the one hand Judaism, with its very tough rules regarding not only religious observance, but the very daily existence of each person, set Jews apart. Then, of course, Christians, from the inception of their religion, blamed every single Jew for the death of Jesus - an illogical standpoint but one used to great effect by bishops and kings to keep Jews "in their place".
Throughout the Middle Ages Jews were persecuted. They were banned from England for hundreds of years. Persecution continued in Eastern Europe, particularly under the Czars, into the 20th century so Hitler's vilification of the Jews was nothing more than a highly organised and very efficient extension of the measures taken against Jewish populations for well over a thousand years previously.
Currently the hatred of Jews by many in Islam and the criticism of Israel elsewhere stems from the arrogance of Zionism which teaches the inalienable right of the Jewish nation to hold onto Greater Israel "as given to them by God" to the exclusion of the Arabs who have lived there for centuries.
This was helped by Britain through the Balfour Declaration which after WW1 helped lay the foundations for the modern state of Israel - a process which was maintained through the British holding of the Palestine protectorate.
After WW2 there was much sympathy for the Jews after the revelations of what had been carried out under Hitler's "Final Solution". Though the British would have preferred to hand Palestine over to a mixed Jewish/Arab state, the actions of terrorist gangs in killing British troops, pressure from the USA, led by powerful Jewish groupings funding the US political parties, and the general consensus in the UK that Britain, in 1946/47, had enough problems of its own, led to the Zionists being able to found the state of Israel, under UN agreement, in 1948.
Ever since the Zionists have persecuted the Palestinians with vigour. How a nation that arose out of sympathy after its own ethnic people were so harshly treated could treat another ethnic group so badly defies any human comprehension.
In addition there is a mixture of envy and loathing of individual Jews at many levels around the world. From some it is because individual Jews have been extremely successful in commerce, banking, science or medicine. From others it is an irrational fear of someone different, for others it is due to bad experiences at the hands of a particular Jew as an employer or party in a business deal. In this, Jews receive no different treatment than other ethnic, non indigenous, group members but are more vocal in highlighting any perceived discrimination.
In modern times in the UK and US and parts of Europe Jewish groups and communities have been a force for good, have helped build strong commercial and scientific platforms enabling their countries to prosper whilst individuals have been valuable and influential members of the community. Look at how many politicians, scientists, medical experts and entertainers are Jewish and how many major British companies were founded by or are currently run by Jewish entrepreneurs.
However, underlying this is the fact that most Jews would attest to being Jewish before any other status of nationality. This is evident particularly in the USA.
Given the financial clout of the US based Jewish groups in the political and commercial sectors, the US has been sucked into protecting Israel and this has given it a power base in the area from which it can "protect" its interests in the region. Also, of course, there are those on the politico-religious Right in the US who see the US as being able to influence the Second Coming by being involved in Israel.
It is interesting to read Noam Chomsky, one of the most celebrated Jewish intellectuals of our time, on Judaism and its effects on US politics. Just last night he stated in a lecture in Dublin that he could only wonder at a system that allowed the United States to be led until recently by a "lunatic who is waiting for the Second Coming and permitted the abuse of power in the Middle East by the USA and Israel".
Jews, will always be an ethnic group until their inter marriage rules are so relaxed that, over centuries, their gene pool is as diluted as most other races which have been exposed to inter marriage. Their religion, in all its forms, will also set them apart in countries where Christianity or other religions, or none, is the norm.
Their great bond of community, even today, leads to "ghettos" which can alienate many and the erection of "eruvs" or boundaries by Orthodox Jewish communities in various cities, including London, helps set them apart and does nothing for integration.
So, in essence Max, Jews are genetically a distinct race, Judaism is a distinct religion and lifestyle and, in legal and human relationship terms, they should be treated no differently to anyone else and should not expect special treatment themselves. Indeed many of their social values are to be encouraged in an era of disrespect for the rule of law.
However, some Jews are more than happy to be set apart from the rest of the world. Like some Muslims, some Catholics and those of other beliefs who hold that they belong to a "chosen" grouping, they see themselves as having the only solution to life and its problems and regard those who do not accept their way as being damned - but then so does any belief system that came out of the deserts of the Middle East.
Re: Jews? What is a Jew?
So far it's getting more confusing.
If being 'Jewish' refers to a religion rather than a nationality, then it seems strange that everyone born in Israel are also considered to be 'Jewish'. You could hardly call everyone born in England as Anglican.
The thing that prompted me to start this involved some reminiscing I was doing about some of my long dead relatives who I remember had very fixed views on where people's status rested based on their ethnicity. Jews were always regarded with suspicion, and as a kid I could never get an answer why this was.
To say that Jews are still hated because they traded Jesus in for 40 pieces of silver 2000 years ago seems a very long bow to draw. You could hardly expect all British to be judged on the acts of the Yorkshire Ripper 30 years ago. My best guess is that perhaps they tend to regard themselves as better than everyone else and this naturally creates friction. But every nation reckons they are inherently superior - look at the French for a start!
...(they're fucking rubbish too.)
If being 'Jewish' refers to a religion rather than a nationality, then it seems strange that everyone born in Israel are also considered to be 'Jewish'. You could hardly call everyone born in England as Anglican.
The thing that prompted me to start this involved some reminiscing I was doing about some of my long dead relatives who I remember had very fixed views on where people's status rested based on their ethnicity. Jews were always regarded with suspicion, and as a kid I could never get an answer why this was.
To say that Jews are still hated because they traded Jesus in for 40 pieces of silver 2000 years ago seems a very long bow to draw. You could hardly expect all British to be judged on the acts of the Yorkshire Ripper 30 years ago. My best guess is that perhaps they tend to regard themselves as better than everyone else and this naturally creates friction. But every nation reckons they are inherently superior - look at the French for a start!
...(they're fucking rubbish too.)
Phwooorr...look at her....CRASH
-
eroticartist
- Posts: 2941
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Jews? What is a Jew?
Deao,
They are members of the Jewish religion.
Mike Freeman.
They are members of the Jewish religion.
Mike Freeman.
amazon.com/author/freeman
-
Mysteryman
- Posts: 878
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Jews? What is a Jew?
Reggie,
You may not think Noam Chomsky is a celebrated intellectual. Much of the rest of the world thinks differently (Google his awards and achievements).
His position as Emeritus Professor at MIT speaks for itself, his numerous awards and his always full speaking engagements diary show his standing in the scientific and psychological - not to mention the political - community.
To state his work is laughed at by psychologists is a gross distortion of the truth. Argued over, yes, as is every academic theory but just what is your qualification to call it a " load of shit"?
Just because you don't agree with his views is no reason to vilely denigrate them.
You may not think Noam Chomsky is a celebrated intellectual. Much of the rest of the world thinks differently (Google his awards and achievements).
His position as Emeritus Professor at MIT speaks for itself, his numerous awards and his always full speaking engagements diary show his standing in the scientific and psychological - not to mention the political - community.
To state his work is laughed at by psychologists is a gross distortion of the truth. Argued over, yes, as is every academic theory but just what is your qualification to call it a " load of shit"?
Just because you don't agree with his views is no reason to vilely denigrate them.
-
beutelwolf
- Posts: 1210
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Jews? What is a Jew?
Reggie Perrin wrote:
> Noam Chomsky is hardly a celebrated intellectual. His theory of
> language acquisition is laughed at by psychologists, total load
> of shit in fact.
Well - his categorisation of grammars in types 0 to 3 is still used in computer science.
> Noam Chomsky is hardly a celebrated intellectual. His theory of
> language acquisition is laughed at by psychologists, total load
> of shit in fact.
Well - his categorisation of grammars in types 0 to 3 is still used in computer science.
-
beutelwolf
- Posts: 1210
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Jews? What is a Jew?
Deano! wrote:
> Always confused by what is meant by the term Jew, the more I
> think about it the less sure I am. People from almost all races
> and countries of birth can claim to be Jewish.
Well, that's contentious. It's not a club you can join just like that, it is a religion with strong ethnic connections.
> Nor have I ever understood why they can be so hated. What the
> hell did they ever do? - apart from confuse me with the
> definition of Jewish. Is it fast becoming an obsolete
> definition?
I think there are three origins for this. One is the promised land issue in the bible; two is the origin of the Christian religion, complete with the 'who is responsible for Jesus's death' issue. The third is emperor Titus' reaction to continuing Jewish resistance in Israel: ethnic cleansing. The result of the latter was to drive the Jews out of Israel and into various places, at first mostly in the mediterranean.
For centuries after that, the Jews were one of very few ethnic minorities in Europe (the gypsies were another), and consequently looked down upon with suspicion, especially in the days of state-prescribed religion. Their own laws prevented them from being absorbed by the host population and stay an entity of their own.
People feel generally uneasy about such entities of their own, groups of different beliefs and loyalties. At times of crisis they make an easy scapegoat.
> Always confused by what is meant by the term Jew, the more I
> think about it the less sure I am. People from almost all races
> and countries of birth can claim to be Jewish.
Well, that's contentious. It's not a club you can join just like that, it is a religion with strong ethnic connections.
> Nor have I ever understood why they can be so hated. What the
> hell did they ever do? - apart from confuse me with the
> definition of Jewish. Is it fast becoming an obsolete
> definition?
I think there are three origins for this. One is the promised land issue in the bible; two is the origin of the Christian religion, complete with the 'who is responsible for Jesus's death' issue. The third is emperor Titus' reaction to continuing Jewish resistance in Israel: ethnic cleansing. The result of the latter was to drive the Jews out of Israel and into various places, at first mostly in the mediterranean.
For centuries after that, the Jews were one of very few ethnic minorities in Europe (the gypsies were another), and consequently looked down upon with suspicion, especially in the days of state-prescribed religion. Their own laws prevented them from being absorbed by the host population and stay an entity of their own.
People feel generally uneasy about such entities of their own, groups of different beliefs and loyalties. At times of crisis they make an easy scapegoat.