Stalin versus Hitler...

[max_tranmere]

You say: imagine Nazism without the racial hatred. Hitler had plans for Germany following the decimation of the country which came about with the Treaty Of Versailles after WW1. The country was so bankrupt as a result that a rise in nationalism came about and as poverty worsened throughout the 20's and into the 30's people, who were looking for an answer, thought they had found it in Hitler. So what would Germany have been like under Nazism if that way of doing things involved everything that it had in its manifesto other than that racial hatred? It would have involved the rebuilding of cities, towns, creating jobs for all - even a car for all as Adolf got Dr Porsche to come up with a 'peoples car', the Volkswagon. The only snag is it could never have been afforded. A country in financial ruin, like Germany was in the 1920s and 30s, could never have afforded to implement the utopian ideal that it hoped to.

[max_tranmere]

Reggie, those 10 million who died in the later stages of the war, which you refer to, how was Hitler responsible for that? Or were they people from Germany who were sent to Aushwitz (if I've spelt it correctly) and similar places?

[Sam Slater]

Excuse me? A load of bollocks?

Did you actually read my post? Yet another example of people reading what they want to see, I feel. Not once did I mention Stalin was less evil than Hitler. With the amount of people who suffered at the hands of these two mens' ideals then I think it a little pointless in toting up the score.

What I posted was a possible answer as to why Stalin isn't as vilified as Hitler. It wasn't an in-depth analyses or anything, just the first reasonable answer to Max's question.

A summary of the exchange:

Max: Why do most people vilify Hitler more than Staling?

Sam: Maybe because Hitler's motives for killing had more to do with hate while Stalin's was mainly due to political ideals and incompetence.

As you can clearly see, no one mentioned one being more evil than another. I was giving an opinion on other peoples' feelings towards these two mens' actions.

With a little more thought into the matter, though, I think that how you feel about these two men will depend more on where in Eurasia you was brought up. Western Europeans never really suffered at the hands of Stalin like maybe the Poles and other Eastern Europeans did and this must play a part on what we feel about the two.

[Muffinman]

From wikipedia

Views on Stalin in Russian Federation

Results of a controversial poll taken in 2006 stated that over thirty-five percent of Russians would vote for Stalin if he were still alive.

Fewer than a third of all Russians regarded Stalin as a murderous tyrant.

In a July 2007 poll 54 percent of the Russian youth agreed that Stalin did more good than bad while 46 percent (of them) disagreed that Stalin was a cruel tyrant. Half of the respondents, aged from 16 to 19, agreed Stalin was a wise leader.

In December 2008 Stalin was voted third in the nationwide television project Name of Russia (narrowly behind 13th century prince Alexander Nevsky and Pyotr Stolypin, one of Nicholas II's prime ministers), leading to accusations from Communist Party of the Russian Federation that the poll had been rigged in order to prevent him or Lenin being given first place.

On 3 July 2009, Russia's delegates walked out of an Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe session to demonstrate their objections to a resolution for a remembrance day for the victims of both Nazism and Stalinism.Only eight out of 385 assembly members voted against the resolution.


Bear this in mind too:

Fending off the German invasion and pressing to victory in the East required a tremendous sacrifice by the Soviet Union. Soviet military casualties totaled approximately 35 million (official figures 28.2 million) with approximately 14.7 million killed, missing or captured (official figures 11.285 million).
Although figures vary, the Soviet civilian death toll probably reached 20 million.


The allies could not have won the war without Stalin's authoritarian regime - well, let's say the only way they could would have been to nuke Germany and murder millions of civilians.

[justincyder]

I'd be happy for either stalin/hitler/mao to be re-incarnated for just a week and be allowed to clear up the UK with the proviso that they didn't touch anyone who actually wants to contribute to society as a whole.

Definitions of 'contribute' differ of course but essentially as a rule of thumb anyone of any colour/creed/religion who wants to ( but not necessarily is in a postion to ) have a positive effect on those around him/her is exempt from being led off for a nice shower.

That would be nice.