Sam, the point you are missing all along is this, and this is particularly true for the UK:
Someone breaks into your house and, either because they threaten you/your family upfront, or you are disturbed and confront them, you - as an innocent householder - are at a major disadvantage on 3 fronts.
1. The intruder, whatever his state of mind, has made a determined effort to enter your property either to cause damage, rob or harm the occupants, possibly all three. He has some idea of what he wants to do - you have no idea of his motive or state of mind.
2. The intruder may or may not be carrying a weapon (defined as anything from a screwdriver, through a box cutter to a knife, axe or gun, possibly a realistic imitation - equally illegal). The chances of you having a weapon of any sort about your person when confronted by the intruder are, in the UK, very small so you have to improvise and look for something whilst he KNOWS his capabilities, with a weapon or not.
3. The intruder, again in whatever state of mind he may be in, knows to some degree how far he is willing to push violence. He also is likely to bet that you will act (if not be) more scared than he. If he is sober, drug free and a career criminal not afraid of threatening violence, even if he isn't carrying a weapon, under the current law he knows he is on a winner and you are on a hiding to nothing because if you retaliate and he is injured above a level deemed to be "reasonable" he is allowed to sue you, even from prison, if he's brought to justice.
Unless he is unlucky and you are capable of cold blooded thought, of handling yourself in such a situation or, as in the case of some people - often old or extremely corageous - are just so gutsy they face down the intruder, he is in a winning situation, you are on a hiding to nothing.
Do you still think these people should have any rights? And by that I don't mean the right to live, but the right not to face whatever happens to them without any comeback whatsoever.
RIGHTS OF BURGLARS
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Sam Slater
- Posts: 11624
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: RIGHTS OF BURGLARS
A good thoughtful reply Mysteryman, thank you.
A quote from my first posting on this subject you may have missed.
[quote]The laws can seem to be unfair on the victim, and need adjusting,[/quote]
I have no problem with adjusting the laws, to be more favourable towards the victim, and I have no problem with an intruder having a few of his 'rights' taken away, but not his right to live (if possible).
My only problem is people thinking an intruder loses 'all' rights, and deserves death, just because he's stealing. Even if an intruder does deserve death, it's not the home owners right to decide whether that intruder lives or dies, unless that home owner -or friends/family- are in danger themselves.
A quote from my first posting on this subject you may have missed.
[quote]The laws can seem to be unfair on the victim, and need adjusting,[/quote]
I have no problem with adjusting the laws, to be more favourable towards the victim, and I have no problem with an intruder having a few of his 'rights' taken away, but not his right to live (if possible).
My only problem is people thinking an intruder loses 'all' rights, and deserves death, just because he's stealing. Even if an intruder does deserve death, it's not the home owners right to decide whether that intruder lives or dies, unless that home owner -or friends/family- are in danger themselves.
[i]I used to spend a lot of time criticizing Islam on here in the noughties - but things are much better now.[/i]
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diplodocus
- Posts: 1319
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: RIGHTS OF BURGLARS
one danger of having the right to do what you would like to, to anyone on your property is summed up in a case that happened in the States a few years ago
a Scotsman was on holiday, he was attacked/mugged one night. He legged it to the nearest house and banged on the door in an agitated state. The homeowner heard what sounded like an agressive person banging on the door and shot them dead
I for one would not like this to be able to happen here
a Scotsman was on holiday, he was attacked/mugged one night. He legged it to the nearest house and banged on the door in an agitated state. The homeowner heard what sounded like an agressive person banging on the door and shot them dead
I for one would not like this to be able to happen here
we are Leeds.... , and we can still beat the mighty Chester
Re: RIGHTS OF BURGLARS
No, by all accounts you are more likely to be shot by a policeman in the UK.
Mart
Mart
Re: RIGHTS OF BURGLARS
Surely it is much nicer to be shot by a Police Officer?
I, for one, would have no qualms whatsoever, should an Officer see fit to shoot me. Indeed, were I to survive the encounter, I would seek to shake her/him by the hand for making me feel safer.
Furthermore, should that Officer then deem it appropriate to shoot me again, whilst I was shaking her/his hand, then all well and good.
I, for one, would have no qualms whatsoever, should an Officer see fit to shoot me. Indeed, were I to survive the encounter, I would seek to shake her/him by the hand for making me feel safer.
Furthermore, should that Officer then deem it appropriate to shoot me again, whilst I was shaking her/his hand, then all well and good.
Re: RIGHTS OF BURGLARS
Good Morning Sam,
As you and I both know, you wrongly assumed from my first post that I lived in the UK. Nothing wrong with that. However, you credited UK gun laws for my safety. Now that was funny!!!! I let that one slide.!wink!
You mentioned the gun violence in the US. You're right. It's terrible. It's actually much worse than what you hear about in the UK media. In fact, as I look outside, people are laying in the street riddled with bullets and it's only 8am! Blood runs down the sidewalk.
The sad part, is that besides all the innocent shooting victims laying around my feet, I am left with a difficult decision to make. You see Sam, I am from England. I have dual US/UK citizenship. That means I can live on either side of the pond.
However, in spite of the high quality of lifestyle you lead in the UKwith minimal crime and few guns, and the fact that you don't have to walk over stacks of bullet riddled bodies every morning like I do, I choose to stay this side of the pond suffering a truly horrible lifestyle. Sometimes life really sucks.
WJC
As you and I both know, you wrongly assumed from my first post that I lived in the UK. Nothing wrong with that. However, you credited UK gun laws for my safety. Now that was funny!!!! I let that one slide.!wink!
You mentioned the gun violence in the US. You're right. It's terrible. It's actually much worse than what you hear about in the UK media. In fact, as I look outside, people are laying in the street riddled with bullets and it's only 8am! Blood runs down the sidewalk.
The sad part, is that besides all the innocent shooting victims laying around my feet, I am left with a difficult decision to make. You see Sam, I am from England. I have dual US/UK citizenship. That means I can live on either side of the pond.
However, in spite of the high quality of lifestyle you lead in the UKwith minimal crime and few guns, and the fact that you don't have to walk over stacks of bullet riddled bodies every morning like I do, I choose to stay this side of the pond suffering a truly horrible lifestyle. Sometimes life really sucks.
WJC
Re: RIGHTS OF BURGLARS
Serious violent crime (defined as homicide, rape, robbery & aggravated assault) is in steep decline in the US, unlike the UK.
The DoJ stats show, per 1000 people, in 1973 20.0 whites and 37.3 blacks were victims of serious violent crime. By 2004 the figures were 6.3 for whites and 11.2 for blacks.
I don't want to get bogged down with comparisons between the US and UK, as they are very different countries. The US is essentially a continent, the UK a small island. What I do object to is the fact that since the war successive governments have legislated against us having anything to defend ourselves with when we need to.
Thus, in France, it is quite legal to buy defensive weapons such as tear gas, stun guns and rubber bullets, none of that is possible in the UK. I'd be quite happy to have a shotgun loaded with rubber pellets for home defence, but in the UK you can't. Instead we have to make do with stuff like cricket bats. I would argue that you are much more likely to end up on the receiving end of your own cricket bat than you are your own gun, and of course as one gets older the idea of having to use something like a cricket bat in self-defence seems less and less attractive.
The DoJ stats show, per 1000 people, in 1973 20.0 whites and 37.3 blacks were victims of serious violent crime. By 2004 the figures were 6.3 for whites and 11.2 for blacks.
I don't want to get bogged down with comparisons between the US and UK, as they are very different countries. The US is essentially a continent, the UK a small island. What I do object to is the fact that since the war successive governments have legislated against us having anything to defend ourselves with when we need to.
Thus, in France, it is quite legal to buy defensive weapons such as tear gas, stun guns and rubber bullets, none of that is possible in the UK. I'd be quite happy to have a shotgun loaded with rubber pellets for home defence, but in the UK you can't. Instead we have to make do with stuff like cricket bats. I would argue that you are much more likely to end up on the receiving end of your own cricket bat than you are your own gun, and of course as one gets older the idea of having to use something like a cricket bat in self-defence seems less and less attractive.
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Sam Slater
- Posts: 11624
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: RIGHTS OF BURGLARS
Wow, someone swallowed the 'sarcasm pill' this morning!
If you think that most people should be allowed personal firearms then thats your belief. I also have mine, and I'm guessing you're less likely to die from a burglary in the UK than in the USA. Of course it's just a guess.........but not a wild one is it? As I've stated before, I'll apologise fully to everyone if someone can prove there are a lesser percentage of deaths -per year- in the USA, per burglary.
Once the UK's 'death per burglary' rate exceeds the USA's, I'll call out for more firearms permits to be issued over here. Until someone proves otherwise, my 'guess' holds up, and if it holds up I'll 'stick to my guns' (you like that one?) and don't want the UK to go down the USA route.
As for assuming you lived in the UK? Well, an easy mistake as we were talking about being able to protect yourself with guns from burglars, on a UK message board. Since it's legal in the USA anyway, you should have stated more clearly where the laws of your country stand on this matter, or at least state where your from as this issue differs greatly from country to country.
If I told everyone I carried an elephant gun around whilst shopping for fruit, then you'd think I was either lying, or mental. If I told everyone after that I picked my fruit off the African savannah and was in constant fear of Hyena/lion attack, then you'd think that was a valid point I should have brought up regarding my stance on carrying an elephant gun whilst shopping, correct? My assumption was wrong, but quite understandable I think.
Please forgive my ignorance BTW. I didn't realise it was your first few postings on here and I failed to welcome you to the board. Anyway, welcome to the board!
You've done well! A first posting straight out of a Bruce Willis movie, and another full of sarcasm! It should be fun having you around! !wink!
If you think that most people should be allowed personal firearms then thats your belief. I also have mine, and I'm guessing you're less likely to die from a burglary in the UK than in the USA. Of course it's just a guess.........but not a wild one is it? As I've stated before, I'll apologise fully to everyone if someone can prove there are a lesser percentage of deaths -per year- in the USA, per burglary.
Once the UK's 'death per burglary' rate exceeds the USA's, I'll call out for more firearms permits to be issued over here. Until someone proves otherwise, my 'guess' holds up, and if it holds up I'll 'stick to my guns' (you like that one?) and don't want the UK to go down the USA route.
As for assuming you lived in the UK? Well, an easy mistake as we were talking about being able to protect yourself with guns from burglars, on a UK message board. Since it's legal in the USA anyway, you should have stated more clearly where the laws of your country stand on this matter, or at least state where your from as this issue differs greatly from country to country.
If I told everyone I carried an elephant gun around whilst shopping for fruit, then you'd think I was either lying, or mental. If I told everyone after that I picked my fruit off the African savannah and was in constant fear of Hyena/lion attack, then you'd think that was a valid point I should have brought up regarding my stance on carrying an elephant gun whilst shopping, correct? My assumption was wrong, but quite understandable I think.
Please forgive my ignorance BTW. I didn't realise it was your first few postings on here and I failed to welcome you to the board. Anyway, welcome to the board!
You've done well! A first posting straight out of a Bruce Willis movie, and another full of sarcasm! It should be fun having you around! !wink!
[i]I used to spend a lot of time criticizing Islam on here in the noughties - but things are much better now.[/i]
Re: RIGHTS OF BURGLARS
Robches,
You are right about wrongful comparisons between the UK and US, but, unfortunately they do occur. As an example, you can fit England in the state where I live and we have less then six million people living in the state. A lot of people like myself live miles from nowhere and cannot rely on the cops responding in a few minutes. Consequently, my location makes me a prime target for burglers.
Several people have attempted to break in. My doors and window frames have the scars to prove it. However, if they do break in, I am my one and only protector. Because of that, the state where I live affords me certain laws and judicial precedents with which to defend myslef - in other words, I can shoot a burgler in my house without fear of prosecution even if they die.
I believe that homeowners in any country should be given unambiguous laws that give them a clear legal/physical advantage over the burglar. In the heat of the moment of potentially lethal confrontation (with or without a gun on either party) the homeowner should not have to worry whether he's breaking the law or not. But, like I say, they law must be unambiguous enough to give the home owner enough latitude of action with which to defend his or herself.
JWC
You are right about wrongful comparisons between the UK and US, but, unfortunately they do occur. As an example, you can fit England in the state where I live and we have less then six million people living in the state. A lot of people like myself live miles from nowhere and cannot rely on the cops responding in a few minutes. Consequently, my location makes me a prime target for burglers.
Several people have attempted to break in. My doors and window frames have the scars to prove it. However, if they do break in, I am my one and only protector. Because of that, the state where I live affords me certain laws and judicial precedents with which to defend myslef - in other words, I can shoot a burgler in my house without fear of prosecution even if they die.
I believe that homeowners in any country should be given unambiguous laws that give them a clear legal/physical advantage over the burglar. In the heat of the moment of potentially lethal confrontation (with or without a gun on either party) the homeowner should not have to worry whether he's breaking the law or not. But, like I say, they law must be unambiguous enough to give the home owner enough latitude of action with which to defend his or herself.
JWC