RIGHTS OF BURGLARS

[Robches]

>Guns make you feel safer. My guess is that the actual stats tell a different story.

Again with the guessing.

In the US 43 states have "shall issue" carry permits: ie, if you are law abiding, the police shall issue you a carry permit. Another 5 "may issue", and only 2 states will not allow private citizens to carry concealed weapons.

The result is that armed citizens cause no trouble, and are able to defend themselves when the shit hits the fan. That's the real world experience of literally millions of people. I think it trumps your guess.

I recently read one account of a guy in New Orleans during the floods. Five looters were trying to get into his house. He only had to show them his rifle (an AK) and they scarpered. They didn't fancy it. That won't show up in any crime stats, but it happens all the time. Criminals are by and large lazy cowards. If they see a householder with a gun they'll fuck off. If that incident is reported depends on whether the householder can be arsed with dealing with the cops or not.

[WJC]

Having used a gun on an intruder, and also the fact that I live miles from anywhere and consequently rely upon guns as my immediate form of protection, I'd like to offer some reality to counter an awful lot of hypothetical BS written so far.

First of all, I am a multiple gun owner. All my firearms are registered and are kept under lock and key. I have a carry permit though I have never used it. I target shoot several times a week for pleasure on my property as I have done for many years. I mainly use various handguns and shotguns.

To cut a long story short, several years ago I confronted an intruder in my kitchen at approximately 11pm. He picked up a carving knife and threatened to kill my wife, father and myself. He didn't know I had a . 357 magnum behind my back. I produced the gun and aimed it directly between his eyes. There was about three to four feet between the end of the barrel and his head. I told him not to move a muscle and to simply drop the knife. He looked straight down the barrel and did nothing. At this stage, I cocked the weapon to single action which causes a loud click. At this stage, you essentially only have to touch the trigger ever so slightly to cause discharge. I told him again to drop the knife or I'll blow his brains out if he so much as twitches. He thought for several seconds then dropped the knife.

I got the guy on the ground and hog-tied him until help arrived at our house. Turns out the guy had been doing drugs. We had about two feet of snow that day and it took about ninety minutes before anyone got out to our house to take this guy away.

One of the biggest myths about guns is that you have to discharge a weapon for it to be effective. You don't as I have described above. There are various levels of use. However, equally mythical is the conjecture in some of the previous posts outlining when it is correct to discharge and when it is not.

Every situation is as unique as the individuals involved. There is no black or white predetermined response. It simply doesn't exist because there are so many variables involved such as light, angle, location in house and last but not least, the threat perception not just from the intruder, but also the psychology of the gun owner as well.

As for shooting someone in the back, that falls into the black and white --" if A = B then do C" theory -- it doesn't exist. If it's daylight and I see someone running away from me through the front door I'm probably not going to shoot. However, if that person stops dead in his tracks inside my house and reaches for something, I'll shoot. I don't care where I hit them.
As for pitch-black nighttime, I'll shoot first and ask question later as I am dealing with an unknown quantity beside the fact that they're in my house illegally. I have a pump action minimum legal barrel length Mossberg for that situation.

Only once have I had to use a weapon in self defense. However, I have carried weapons through the house on a nighttime on various false alarms. It's not fun. I always call the cops first to let them know. Your hands sweat, you're afraid to put the light on, you're afraid to make a sound, you try to make sure the gun is fully loaded and the safety is off, you're scared to open doors, you're scared about who you're confronting, you're so nervous you cannot describe it. The range of emotions is enormous. The suggestion that Tony Martin obviously new what he was doing is ridiculous at best. Only he knows his reasoning. Until you've been in those situations, you have no earthly idea what goes through one's mind. Anyone can sit in front of the computer keys in a nice calm environment and write hypothetical/philosophical comments about lethal use of force and what one should or should not do, or what they "Joe Cool" would have done.
As for the use of a weapon, actually hitting a target is much harder than you think, even at close range in daylight as I believe a previous poster has pointed out. In fact, in a pitch black environment, I'd back an intruder armed with a knife or bat over an inexperienced gun owner armed with a six shot revolver.

As for ricochets, trust me, they are the last thing you are thinking about when having to using deadly force.

You also have the question of whether or not you could pull the trigger. You simply don't know until the time comes. There are those who are antigun until they wish they had one, and then there are those who are pro-gun but can't use one should the need arise. You simply don't know until the time comes.

And oh yes, in my situation, not a drop of blood was spilled, the situation peacefully resolved because I had a gun and used it. Of course, my story never made the news because no violence was involved. Just think of the headlines if the guy had killed myself and my family.

WJC

[Sam Slater]

[quote]The result is that armed citizens cause no trouble, and are able to defend themselves when the shit hits the fan. That's the real world experience of literally millions of people. I think it trumps your guess.[/quote]

Defending yourself 'when the shit hits the fan' is also another guess on your part too. Defending yourself with a gun is all good if the burglar is unarmed, but you're still missing the point of both burglar 'and' you having guns. Will you still be able to defend yourself then? Will people on this forum then demand an Uzi to compensate for a burglars hand gun?

At the moment, 99% of burglars do not carry weapons because they don't need to. Once we're allowed a magnum to defend ourselves, burglars will bring a friend and they'll 'both' have magnums to overpower you.

Can anyone not see this?

[Sam Slater]

It sounds like you had a lucky escape. Now say lots of people own hand guns for protection, and burglars compensate with their own weapons. Would the outcome have been so rosy if you both had guns pointing at eachother?

Being in a drugged state, would he have gave 2 fucks about shooting first? Your intruder seemed to pick the wrong household and paid the price, but he didn't come armed because most people don't have handguns. He didn't even concider that set of circumstances arising. So you benefited from our current laws and the burglars lack of forethought.

If he'd known you had guns, he may have brought one himself.

[Officer Dibble]

"At the moment, 99% of burglars do not carry weapons because they don't need to. Once we're allowed a magnum to defend ourselves, burglars will bring a friend and they'll 'both' have magnums to overpower you.

Can anyone not see this?"

Er, no. The vast majority of burglars are brainless, chav, scumbags. Butterfly brains who are neither determined nor focused. They are, on the whole, opportunist simpletons devoid of backbone who will quickly be deterred if they perceive their potential victims might, A) catch them, and then, B) give them a right vicious kicking (or shoot 'em!). They don't want to risk that for the sake of a poxy Amstrad DVD player. Even chavs are not that stupid. Instead, if given a choice, they will pick the little old lady who lives alone. A person they can simply brush aside in the almost certain knowledge that she hasn't got a Smith & Wesson in her knitting bag. Even the diviest chav will not want to get into a gunfight over a ?5.00 (pub value) DVD player. However, if your opponents were determined, focused, intelligent people - like, for instance, the Brinks Mat Mob - and you have something worth nicking, then if you brandished a firearm in their faces you had better be the one to start shooting first.

So, in short, if we all had pump-action Remington?s in our cupboard and were allowed to use them on malicious intruders without to many formalities, then opportunist burglaries would become a much less inviting prospect to your average bad brain. And on that uplifting note I suggest you checkout these beauties!





Officer Dibble

[WJC]

Sam, with all due respect, you are posing hypothetical circumstances that I have already alluded to. Each incident is unique to the situation and individuals involved. However, I always assume the intruder is armed any time I think I may have one in the house although you never know until after the fact. If one is not comfortable assuming that or using a firearm, then the best bet is to call the cops and do your best to barricade yourself in your room or escape.

>"So you benefited from our current laws and the burglars lack of forethought."< - I live in the rural US so I assume the intruder is armed.

WJC

[Robches]

>Your intruder seemed to pick the wrong household and paid the price, but he didn't come armed because most people don't have handguns. He didn't even concider that set of circumstances arising. So you benefited from our current laws and the burglars lack of forethought.

It seems to me that WJC lives in the States, which is why he was able to defend himself with a .357 against a guy with a knife. In the UK the burglar wins.

The scenarios he and I described are quite common: a burglar sees a gun and he's off, no-one gets shot. That's why most burglars in the US try to target empty houses, whereas in the UK they don't care.

[Snake Diamond]

Mart, actually, I happen to agree with what Dibble said, that does NOT mean I am a Sycophant.

I have been on the receiving end of a Burglary, not just on one occasion either.

Now I didn't say you should blow a Burglar's head off if he/she is running away after confronting them, but they should NOT be given rights to the extent they do at present.

[Snake Diamond]

I agree with you on the counts of illegaly entering property & subsequant loss of Rights.

[Sam Slater]

Of course it's hypothetical, and thank God it is! You say that you always assume an intruder is armed? Well thats not surprising as I'd guess that there's a fair chance an intuder 'would' be armed in the USA. In the UK it's different. We don't usually associate burglaries with guns over here, and I'd like to keep it that way.

Gun violence is mainly related to a few drug gangs & bank robberies over here, where as the USA has gun problems with bank robberies, burglaries, street robbery, drug gangs, pissed off teenagers at schools, innocent shootings by police on a weekly basis, neighbourly friction, etc etc etc. (this last paragraph isn't hypothetical !wink!)