English supporters in Germany

[Fred]

>>Remember the Nazi salute towards the english crowd, one of the German >>players did in Euro 96 at Wembley?

Fact check: not a German player.

Correct me otherwise, you'll find the incident you're thinking of was of Australian-born Mark Bosnich doing this to Spurs fans whilst playing for Aston Villa.

[Fred]

Or maybe you're thinking of the Mirror headline: ?Achtung! Surrender. For you Fritz, Ze Euro 96 Championship is over??

[Guffy]

'We'll beat T&T and top the group on goal advantage over Sweden, after we draw with them.'



After England beat Trindad and draw with Sweden as you predict, they will have 7 points.

The point Sweden get from the England game will mean the maximum they can get in the group stage is 5 points as they only drew with Trinidad.

Therefore goal advantage will not be a factor.

[Sam Slater]

It's called 'sarcasm' Flat_Eric. I don't think there's anything 'logical' about legalising drugs either.

[Sam Slater]

Fred wrote:

[quote]Fact check: not a German player.

Correct me otherwise, you'll find the incident you're thinking of was of Australian-born Mark Bosnich doing this to Spurs fans whilst playing for Aston Villa.[/quote]

FACT CHECK: Andy Moller's goal celebration after scoring the winning penalty in the semi-final shoot out, against England, at Wembley was a nazi salute/hitler impression, and yes............Andy Moller is German. He did this after running 45 yards straight towards the England fans. His excuse was something to do with a certain english tabloids headline that morning.

It was the penalty right after Gareth Southgate's miss, go check it out!

[Fred]

Na. Simply doesn't wash, chum.

Sure, it was described at the time as the "jagger swagger" or an "arrogant strut", but a Nazi salute/Hitler impression? Don't make me laugh.

Unlike Brits who only ever see the Nazi salute either in a Fawlty Towers or Escape from Colditz context, Germans in the public eye know exactly what the consequences would be - instant career suicide and quite possibly prosecution.

Once again, you're mixing it up with the Bosnich incident where the tabloids did play a role. Go check it out: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... _n14456068

Now if you want a footballer giving a real Nazi salute - check out our Italian friend Paolo Di Canio. !adolf!

[Sam Slater]

Watch it again Fred, 'Faulty Towers' style walk with the salute at the end. Moller even admited it in an interview after, and blamed a tabloids front cover which had a reference to the war. (childish of the paper in question without a doubt).

I'm just saying it incited the crowd. After Neville being fined just for kissing a badge then all I'm saying is, if an english player did something equivalent to what Moller did then fifa would come down hard.

I know all about the Bosnich incident, didn't find it disrespectful in the slightest as he's 'a bit retarded' anyway.

!wink!

[Fred]

No matey. It's your "memory" that's at fault here, or you're just trying to prove a partisan point. Either way, it's clear is that you have no understanding of the issue.

Firstly, there's no doubt that the way Moller celebrated the German victory needled the home crowd. Just as we were absolutely crestfallen at that moment, so he was loving it. That's the nature of football - it's a tribal thing.

But there is no way that he would have done a Hitler/Nazi impression as you claim, for the reasons I spell out above. Unlike non-Germans, it simply wouldn't have even occurred to him to do such a thing in a satirical context. Unlike you, he didn't grow up watching Fawlty Towers, so the irony of the sketch would be truly foreign to him. Germans don't "get" irony. Any Hitler salute/Nazi impression he would have encountered would have been as a butt of someone else's joke - see how German schoolkids visiting the UK are still treated to "Sieg Heils" well over 60 years after the war. There are no cases where they have responded to their tormentors "satirically" by repeating the salute - it's simply unlogical, like your whole argument.

Now, put it this way: if Moller had done as you claim, it would have been a major incident, like the Bosnich case. Politicians and pundits would have leapt in, editorials would have screamed to high heaven that all Germans are Nazis in disguise, Helmut Kohl would have been on the phone to John Major - there would have been a major diplomatic flap. What's more, there would have been plenty evidence of this "shameful" incident, it would have gone down in history in the papers and press and discussion forums.

And what is there out there? Absolutely nowt, nada, nichts. Plenty references to his strutting arrogance - which patriot did not grind ther teeth at this moment of humiliation - but definitely not as you "remember" it. I remember it only too well - I happened to be in an Irish pub in Berlin crammed full of ex-pats, and we were not happy campers at that point, I can tell you.

Moller may well have been aware of the "For you Fritz" Mirror headline and was undoubtedly savouring his moment of sweet revenge, but there was never a "confession", an interview where he admitted doing a Hitler/Nazi impression, because it just didn't happen. Not in a month of Sundays.

So a half-remembered incident from a decade ago, skewed to win a point? Or just a patriot's emotions colouring his memory - "thirty years of hurt"?

Whatever. Let's just pray we beat Trinidad and Tobago, OK?

[chatterji]

Details. How dare you expose my lack of factual accuracy when I'm in full pontificating flow.

[Sam Slater]

Fred, you seem to miss my point entirely.

After scoring his penalty -I'll try and describe this through text as best I can- he walked with:

a) 1 hand on his hip,
b) the other hand in the air,
c) nazi type strut/walk/march (high legs & all that)

I mentioned 'faulty towers walk' as the easiest way to explain his walk through text. I didn't mean he'd watched faulty towers and copied the walk from that!

I'm not an old SS officer, so I don't know if the walk/sulte thing of his was 'with the correct technique', or not. If it wasn't a nazi walk, then it was damn close.


All of the above is beside the point I'm trying to make though. What I'm trying to tell you is that if an english player did anything that may be construed as offensive or, disrespectful to any other team, we'd hear a lot more about it, and fifa would crack down hard.

Even celebrating in front of the other teams fans is concidered 'wrong'. When england beat germany 5-1 did any of our players incite the crowd for 'any' of our goals? No. If they had have done, we'd have heard more about it than Mollers celebration infront of the english crowd at wembley.

My complaint is in no way an 'emotional' one either. I'm english but I promise you I'm not viewing this through 'St George' tinted sunglasses! I'm just stating a few facts. My posts wern't meant to be a 'cheap shot' at the germans either. I just refered to the 'Moller' inceident as an example. I could have used Spains coach 'Aragones' for his 'nigger jibes. Again, fifa hardly murmured a thing. He got a fine I coulda paid for him and a tap -not a slap- on the wrist. If those comments had come from a British coach, fifa woulda been outraged and the FA woulda sacked him on the spot, and quite rightly.

Another recent example is Seb Blatter's comments the other day.

We have France continually 'stealing' Africa's talent, giving them french citizenship so they'll play for France. We have Spains awful racist & monkey chants and Italy's recent corruption and match fixing scandals. Do you know what ole Seb Blatter was bangin on about recently? Complaining again at the Premierships long season and how it should be cut to 18 teams!

I actually agree with him, but when we mention other counties problems he says he can't get involved with a nations club football, and only national football come's under his jurisdiction!

Anyway my points stand firm. The there's a lower tolerance on behavour of english players/fans from fifa/ueafa, compared to other nations. Thats the point I'm trying to make.

Oh & my memory's fine. I have Englands Euro 96 games on dvd !wink!

Ps. England 'will' win today, though I'm still worried we won't be able to keep the ball as good as the Brazils, Argantina's, Spains, Portugals to actually win it. Erikssons mentality is 'Italian', we play ok until we score then drop deep and play counter attacking football. A dangerous game........