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In the wake of what has happened in Manchester, the Tory grandee Lord Tebbit has said the death sentence should be introduced for killers of Police officers. I think that would be a good thing, but there are a few things to consider: often it will be commuted to manslaughter so the person would not die anyway, just go to prison for life; secondly, people on Death Row in the USA are often there for many years while they appeal and appeal, the cost to the taxpayer often runs into millions, and lots of nasty cynical lawyers become very rich indeed.

I think it would be good to introduce it though, so long as the chances of the person eventually dying is very high, as it could work as a deterrent. The guy in Manchester was going to be sentenced to life for two civilian murders anyway, so him killing more people makes no difference. Someone going down forever basically has a free reign to kill additional people because you can't currently punish anyone more than giving them a life sentence. Knowing he was looking at life, he effectively gets away with the murder of the two Police officers as he was about to go down forever anyway - these extra two killings he gets no additional punishment for.

The prospect of being sent to the chair, or the rope, would be a deterrent - surely. People views please.

Do you aspire to live in a society similar to the Scandinavian model or one similar to the American model? Vengeance and justice are not the same thing. America having the death penalty does not seem to bring the murder rate down, or lead to a more civilised society, moreover violence seems to begat violence. So no to the death penalty and no to arming police officers, on the whole our society is better than that. Please note that I have the utmost respect for those that have lost their lives in such tragic circumstances seeking to uphold these ideals.

Sometimes I am guilty of posting messages without getting my brain in gear first.

Tell me Max, do you actually think through your messages before posting?

"In the wake of what has happened in Manchester, the Tory grandee Lord Tebbit has said the death sentence should be introduced for killers of Police officers. I think that would be a good thing,"

Why would it be a good thing Max, given British judicial history is littered with cases of wrongful convictions for murder? Not much chance of putting it right, the fit-up etc etc. if the poor bastard convicted is already six foot under?

"often it will be commuted to manslaughter so the person would not die anyway, just go to prison for life"

Well we could always bump people off for manslaughter, Max. Why hold back? Besides in the British legal system typically a decision is made pre-trial as to whether the charge is murder or manslaughter and as far as I am aware, manslaughter tends not to get a life sentence.

"The guy in Manchester was going to be sentenced to life for two civilian murders anyway, so him killing more people makes no difference. "

You have no information whatsoever to back this up. The guy had been arrested but because there was not enough information to charge him, he had been put on bail. If he had been charged he would have been inside awaiting trial.

"forever basically has a free reign to kill additional people because you can't currently punish anyone more than giving them a life sentence. Knowing he was looking at life, he effectively gets away with the murder of the two Police officers as he was about to go down forever anyway - these extra two killings he gets no additional punishment for. The prospect of being sent to the chair, or the rope, would be a deterrent - surely.

Though I suppose if you knew you were going to be hung for committing murder then you may as well kill half a dozen, a couple of hundred etc.

Of course what you could do is hang them until they are nearly dead then throw a bucket of water over them and revive them. Then you could go through this procedure as many times as murders have been committed until you get to the last one and you finish the job, perhaps with a garrotting and throat slitting.

What do you reckon?

Given the level of criminality that this guy was at, already with two murders under his belt, it's a bit mind boggling to think he was considered suitable to be out on bail!

I think you have the chronology wrong.

This link explains why he was out on bail.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ma ... r-19648923

I see, thanks, I guess they had no choice but to release him without enough information to charge him.

Max - I believe, and I respect David Johnson`s view, but disagree with
him - that if majority verdicts were abolished and we returned to a full
jury verdict, that the possibility thereafter that Society might make a
wrong conclusion in a murder trial is a risk worth taking.
By allowing multiple murderers such as this man to live shows what little
respect we have these days for the sanctity of life. I accept that an
element of revenge comes into an execution for murder but I fail to see
that "lex talionis" is such a bad thing. I would ask David to list for me
all the multiple murderers (ie those convicted of more than one murder)
in the UK for have been found subsequently innocent since the abolition
of capital punishment. Society must be governed for the majority at all
times, not the minority....
But, since I don`t think a return to capital punishment is on the cards,
police murder or no police murder, the one good thing about this awful
killer is that he will never be free again - ever. My reason for saying this
is that Harry Roberts, Britain`s worst ever police killer (murdered 3 in
1966) is still behind bars (or was the last time I checked), after 46 years,
the Law you see, never forgives or forgets its own.

[quote]The prospect of being sent to the chair, or the rope, would be a deterrent - surely.[/quote]

Yeah. Nutters who go around killing people really sit down with a piece of paper and write down all the pros and cons. The death sentence would really make them think twice cos most murderers are sensible, logical people, aren't they? And in countries where they have the death penalty they have really low murder rates and stuff. How come we got rid of it?

Christ on a bike, Max.

I'm not in favour of the death penalty, but if anyone is convicted of murder I think they should spend life behind bars. And not in an open prison.
Now some people on here think every one deserves a second chance but they are wrong.
If you are a murderer you deserve fuck all.

"By allowing multiple murderers such as this man to live shows what little
respect we have these days for the sanctity of life."

Err! Bit of a contradiction there.

As you know multiple murders are relatively rare. However it is worth pointing out that many miscarriages of justice are due to fit-ups so changing the required verdict from 10 to 12 would make little difference. Here are a few examples of miscarriages of justice, many of which would have resulted in the deaths of innocent men.


John Alexander Dickman was wrongfully convicted of the murder of John Nisbet on 6 July 1910, and sentenced to death, on purely circumstantial evidence, and on the basis of an ID parade where the witness was tainted. The Home Secretary of the time, Winston Churchill, took a keen interest in the case, and he expressed doubts about the evidence. A campaign was run to free Dickman, but John Dickman was hanged in Newcastle Prison on 10 August 1910. In 1925 a person called "Condor" confessed to killing John Nisbet. The document of 40,000 words spread over 205 pages was sent to Truth Magazine. The document was sent on to the Home Office but they refused to order the police to investigate it.

William Herbert Wallace who was convicted of murdering his wife, but the conviction was overturned by the Court of Criminal Appeal in 1931, the first such instance of a capital conviction being quashed.

Walter Graham Rowland was tried for a murder in Manchester and hanged in 1947, despite poor identification evidence and a confession from another.

Timothy Evans's wife and young daughter were killed in 1949. Evans was convicted of the murder of his daughter and was hanged in 1950. An official inquiry conducted 15 years later determined that the real killer of Evans's daughter had been Evans's co-tenant, serial killer John Reginald Halliday Christie. Christie was also responsible for the death of Evans's wife, his own wife, and six other women. He was the chief witness against Evans at his trial because the police accepted all of his statements as fact. The police were incompetent in their several searches of the house at Rillington Place, missing bones of earlier victims exposed in the tiny garden of the property. They also concocted false confessions from Evans to justify their accusations against Evans. The case was important in leading directly to the abolition of capital punishment in 1965 in the UK.

Mahmood Mattan, little known case of a Somali fisherman, hanged in Cardiff in 1952. Conviction overtured in 1998. ?1.4 million compensation was shared out between Mattan's widow Laura, and her three children.

Derek Bentley, executed for murdering a police officer. The charge was based on the allegation that during a standoff with police, he shouted to an armed friend 'Let him have it, Chris'. The case is often said to be a miscarriage of justice, and the verdict was overturned half a century later. It should be noted, however, that the grounds for overturning the verdict was that the trial had not been fair, due to various procedural defects. Had Bentley still been alive, there would certainly have been a retrial; he was not pronounced innocent by the Court of Appeal.

Andrew Evans served more than 25 years for the murder of 14-year-old Judith Roberts. He confessed to the 1972 murder after seeing the girl's face in a dream. His conviction was overturned in 1997.

Stephen Downing was convicted of the murder of Wendy Sewell in a Bakewell churchyard in 1973. The 17-year-old had a reading age of 11 and worked at the cemetery as a gardener. The police made him sign a confession that he was unable to read. The case gained international notoriety as the "Bakewell Tart" murder. After spending 27 years in prison, Stephen Downing was released on bail in February 2001, pending the result of an appeal. His conviction was finally overturned in January 2002.

The Birmingham Six were fraudulently convicted in 1975 of planting two bombs in pubs in Birmingham in 1974 which killed 21 people and injured 182. They were finally released in 1991.

In 1974 Judith Ward was convicted of murder of several people caused by a number of IRA bombings 1973. She was finally released in 1992 having served 18 years in prison.

The Guildford Four and Maguire Seven were wrongly convicted in 1974 and 1976 respectively of planting bombs in various pubs in Guildford and Woolwich. Their convictions were quashed in 1989 and 1991. On February 9, 2005, British Prime Minister Tony Blair issued a public apology to the Maguire Seven and the Guildford Four for the "miscarriages of justice they had suffered."

Stefan Kiszko was convicted in 1976 for the rape and murder of an 11-year old Lesley Molseed in 1975. He spent 16 years in prison before he was released in 1992, after a long campaign by his mother. He died of a heart attack the following year at the age of 41. His mother died a few months later. In 2007, Ronald Castree, of Shaw, near Oldham, was found to have the same DNA as Lesley's attacker and was convicted at Bradford Crown Court.

John Joseph Boyle aged 18 was convicted under the pretenses of an alleged confession at Belfast City Commission on October 14, 1977 of possession of firearms and ammunition with intent to endanger life, and membership in the I.R.A. He was sentenced to ten years in prison on the first count, and to two years in prison on the second count, the terms to run concurrently. A suspended sentence of two years imprisonment imposed for a previous offense was also invoked, making a total of twelve years in prison. When released he underwent a long fight to prove his innocence. In 2003, his conviction was quashed but he has been denied compensation.

Paul Blackburn was convicted in 1978 when aged 15 of the attempted murder of a 9-year old boy, and spent more than 25 years in 18 different prisons, during which time he maintained his innocence. He said he had never considered saying he was guilty to secure an earlier release because it was a matter of "integrity". He was finally released in May 2005 having served 25 years when the Court of Appeal ruled his trial was unfair and his conviction 'unsafe'.

The Bridgewater Four were convicted in 1979 of murdering Carl Bridgewater, a 13-year-old paper boy who was shot on his round when he disturbed robbers at a farm in Staffordshire. Patrick Molloy died in jail in 1981. The remaining three were released in 1997 after their convictions were overturned.

Peter Fell, a former hospital porter, described in the media as a "serial confessor" and a "fantasist", was sentenced to two life terms in 1984 for the murder of Ann Lee and Margaret "Peggy" Johnson, who were killed while they were out walking their dogs in 1982. His conviction was overturned in 2001. He had served 17 years.

Sean Hodgson, also known as Robert Graham Hodgson, was convicted in 1982 of murder following various confessions to police, although he pleaded not guilty at his trial. His defence said he was a pathological liar and the confessions were untrue. He was freed on March 18, 2009 by the Court of Appeal as a result of advances in DNA analysis which established his innocence.

Winston Silcott was jailed for the murder of PC Keith Blakelock during the 1985 Broadwater Farm Riot in Tottenham. He was cleared in 1991, when new evidence came to light.

Kenny Richey, a UK-US dual citizen, spent 21 years on Death Row in the US after being convicted of starting a fire that killed 2-year-old Cynthia Collins. His conviction was eventually thrown out. Richey agreed to a plea bargain in which he agreed to plead 'no contest' to involuntary manslaughter, child endangering and breaking and entering. In exchange for this plea, the prosecution dropped the charges of arson and murder. Part of the agreement was that Richey leave the U.S. immediately.

The Cardiff Newsagent Three, Michael O'Brien (of the Cardiff Newsagent Three), Darren Hall and Ellis Sherwood, were wrongly convicted for the murder of a newsagent, Phillip Saunders. On October 12, 1987 Mr Saunders, 52, was battered with a spade outside his Cardiff home. The day's takings from his kiosk had been stolen, and five days later he died of his injuries. The three men spent 11 years in jail before the Court of Appeal quashed the conviction in 1999. The three have since been paid six figure compensation, but South Wales Police had still not apologised or admitted liability for malicious prosecution or misfeasance.

Michelle and Lisa Taylor, wrongly convicted for the murder in 1991 of Alison Shaughnessy, a bank clerk who was the bride of Michelle's former lover. The trial was heavily influenced by inaccurate media reporting and deemed unfair.

The Cardiff Three, Steven Miller, Yusef Abdullahi, and Tony Paris were falsely jailed for the murder of prostitute Lynette White, stabbed more than 50 times in a frenzied attack in a flat above a betting shop in Cardiff's Butetown area on Valentine's Day 1988, in 1990 and later cleared on appeal. In 2003, Jeffrey Gafoor was jailed for life for the murder. The breakthrough was due to modern DNA techniques used on evidence taken from the crime scene. Subsequently, in 2005, nine retired Police Officers and three serving Officers were arrested and questioned for false imprisonment, conspiracy to pervert the course of justice and misconduct in public office. On 6 July 2011, eight of the officers stood trial at Swansea Crown Court for perverting the course of justice together with three witnesses accused of perjury. However, on 1st Decemver 2011 the entire case collapsed, as the judge ruled the police officers could not be given a fair trial due to the previous publicity.

Sally Clark was convicted in 1996 of the murder of her two small sons Christopher and Harry, and spent three years in jail, finally being released in 2003 on appeal. The convictions were based solely on the analysis of the deaths by the Home Office Pathologist Alan Williams, who failed to disclose relevant information about the deaths, and backed up by the paediatric professor Sir Roy Meadow, whose opinion was pivotal in several other child death convictions, many of which have been overturned or are in the process of being disputed. In 2005 Williams was found guilty of serious professional misconduct and barred from practicing pathology for 3 years. In July 2005 Meadow was also removed from the Medical Register for serious professional misconduct and prohibited from practicing medicine. Sally Clark became an alcoholic as a result of her ordeal and died of alcohol poisoning in 2006.

The Gurnos Three, also known as the Merthyr Tydfil Arson Case (Annette Hewins, Donna Clarke and Denise Sullivan). Wrongly convicted of the arson attack on the home of Diane Jones, aged 21, in October 1995. Someone had torn away part of the covering of her front door and poured in petrol to start the fire. The fire spread so rapidly that Ms Jones and her two daughters, Shauna, aged two and Sarah-Jane, aged 13 months, were all killed. The convictions of Ms Hewins and Ms Clarke were quashed at the Court of Appeal in February 1998 and a retrial ordered in the case of Ms Clarke.

Donna Anthony, 25 at the time, was wrongly jailed in 1998 for the death of her 11 month old son, and finally released in 2005, also because of the opinion of Sir Roy Meadow.

Angela Cannings also jailed wrongly for four years on the now discredited evidence of Sir Roy Meadow. Angela was later stalked by a jail inmate she befriended, and the strain of the wrongful conviction destroyed her marriage.

Barry George was cleared on August 1, 2008 of murdering Jill Dando after a retrial in which police were unable to rely on discredited forensic evidence.
David Carrington-Jones was released on October 16, 2007, after spending six years in jail for a rape he did not commit, having been previously found guilty on two counts of rape and sexual assault against a pair of teenage sisters in December 2000. One of the accusers subsequently admitted to police she made up the allegations against her stepfather Mr Carrington-Jones because she 'did not like him'. It has transpired that the girl had previously made up other allegations of rape against her brother, fianc?e, stepfather and even a customer at her work, but the jury was not told of this, and Mr Carrington-Jones was sentenced to a ten-year jail term at Lewes Crown Court. He was later refused parole hearings because he refused to admit his guilt. Mr Carrington-Jones is said to be discussing claiming compensation.

Suzanne Holdsworth served three years of a life sentence after she was convicted in 2005 of murdering Kyle Fisher, a neighbour's two-year-old son, by repeatedly banging his head against a wooden bannister at her home in Hartlepool. She was found not guilty in 2008 by the Court of Appeal after new medical evidence suggested Kyle may have died from an epileptic seizure.

Sion Jenkins, acquitted after a second retrial of the murder of Billie-Jo Jenkins in February 2006. Jenkins was convicted in 1998 but the conviction was quashed in 2004 following a CCRC referral. The basis of the quashed conviction at the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division) were the concessions by the Crown's pathologist that evidence given at the first tribunal were inaccurate.

Barri White and Keith Hyatt. On 12 December 2000, Rachel Manning, aged 19, was found strangled to death and her face battered with a car crook lock, in the grounds of Woburn Golf Club, in Milton Keynes, Bucks. Her boyfriend, Barri White, 20 at the time, was jailed for life in 2002 for her murder, only to be freed after being acquitted of killing her at a retrial. Mr White's co-accused, Keith Hyatt, 47 at the time, served two-and-a-half years for perverting the course of justice, relating to the post-death battering of the victim?s face, before also having his conviction quashed. Dr Peter Bull, an expert in geo-science forensics, labelled the evidence 'totally implausible'. Subsequently, in 2011, Shahidul Ahmed, 40, from Bletchley, appeared at Milton Keynes Magistrates' Court and was remanded in custody for her murder after the case was reinvestigated by a new team.