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The outcome of the debate today on whether we should have a Referedum about being a member of the European Union won't be decided by the MP's going along with what their constituents want, but instead by how their party leaders tell them to vote. So the public demand a debate, it goes to Parliament, the MP's want to vote along the lines of what the public want (which is democracy) but because the party leaders fear it will go a differnt way to how they personally might like it go, and therefore force a national Referedum, the party whips are bullying the MP's into voting against it.

There is no point having this parliamentary 'debate' . The public will never get what it wants on this issue. Ted Heath took us in, with the public understanding that we would never end up as deeply immersed in Europe as we have become, with so many of our laws and the control of our broders decided by them. Our membership of the European Monetary Exchange (which was John Major's idea), and our exit from it, cost Britain dear back in 1992. I remember the day we were ejected. We lost the equivilant of ?70.00 for every man, woman and child in Britain that day, and the hike in interest rates here as a result meant vast numbers of house repossessions and large numbers of business's going bust.

Tony Blair sold us out even further with the condition-less agreeement that the citizens of the 12 new countries that joined the EU in the 2000's could just move here willy-nilly. We ended up with vast numbers more than we expected. He, and also Gordon Brown, promised a Referendum on Europe. It never happened. The nearest the public have got to having any say on this since the 1970's is this debate today. Something that is totally pointless. There is little point in voting in elections as a citizen, or regarding the situation we live in as being anythng like a democracy. People's comments please.

The governing classes are furious. They can't trust thickos like you and me to understand such complex issues as Europe. We might make a choice that is bad for them. I mean us. So we get bullshit like ?it's not the right time? for a referendum on Europe'

We don't have democracy. Britain has no written constitution to guarantee the rights of the people. And what sort of democracy has unelected Lords? Ours
This three line whip is like something from the dark ages. The political parties make a mockery of democracy by ordering MP's to vote against. I hope MP'S
do what is right and ignore this three line whip.

A great philosopher once wrote, "It's all bollocks!" and I think that about sums up "Democracy" for the likes of you and I. We are democratic to a point, as long as certain vested interests and principles are not harmed. Those are big corporations, tax avoidance by the rich, the unwavering support of Uncle Sam, profiteering by the utilities and apparently our membership of the EU. Remember the EU is a monolithic political "trough" from which thousands of political pigs and piglets can shove their snouts in and feast away at our expense.

I wonder why all the parties are so terrified of this referendum?

The Lib Dems actually campaigned on having a referendum, ie, a vote on the Europe, Treaty so did the Tories, they are all a bunch of cocksucking leeches.

You are right that there has been many, many weasel words over referenda over Europe by all the main parties.

With regard to the 2011 election, I may well be wrong but I think the devil is in the detail about these promises so

In 2009 David Cameron admits he will not be able to fulfil his pledge to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty because it has been ratified by all EU member states. But he says, if elected, no future substantial transfer of powers will take place without the approval of the British people.

In their 2010 election manifesto, the Lib Dems pledge to hold an "in-out" referendum the next time there is a "fundamental change" in the EU's treaty arrangements.

Similar disclaimers appeared in Labour government statements in the small print e.g.

In 2004 Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair says a referendum will be held on ratification of the European Constitution Treaty but does not name a date for the poll

And so it goes on.

Cheers
D

Max you should go and join all the other protestors in tent city and get on the soap box and vent your frustration...

Your calling Nobby a great philosopher Dave, interesting !

If the 6 of you involved in this item are all in agreement, and representative
of the rest of Britain, then it follows that the entire UK population wants out
from the EEC. That can`t be true !
Personally, I have some sympathy with Sarkozy - Britain seems to stand on
the sidelines, wanting some but not all aspects of the EEC (obviously the bits
that suit it), refuses to take the Euro, refuses to join passport free Schengen,
yet whines all and I do mean all the time about the EEC like a spoiled brat.
I love British history, am a proud old-fashioned Brit, but with our imperial and
world power decline since 1945, we are either "in" Europe and show them
who`s boss, or we bloody well get out (and should not have got in in the first
place). The problem, Max, is that we Brits always want our cake and eat it -
and we simply cannot have it both ways.
I would rather like Britain to get out. It would stop you all whining at Europe,
as if its the seat of all your problems, and then lets see if you leap ahead
economically and become a topclass World Power again. I doubt it.
Every - every - country in the world has economic problems right now. Blaming
them on Europe simply won`t do !!

All the main political parties have promised a referendum on Europe but then wriggle out of it once elected. A recent ICM survey revealed 70% of the population want a vote on the issue. 49% would vote to leave Europe and 40% to stay. When enough people want to remain within Europe we will get our referendum. I want a debate on the issue. Explaining to the people the pros and cons. Then letting the people decide.

The last referendum was in 1975 and asked if we wanted to remain within the European Economic Community. That was 36 years ago. There has been much integration since then without the public being given a say. And the people who have turned 18 since 1975 have never had a say on the issue. Don't they deserve a say?

Norway and Switzerland seem to have their cake and eat it?