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[quote] I am tired of reading your fourth rate posts. [/quote]

And like many on here, I'm tired of your constant stream of sanctimonious, morally-superior, politically-motivated horseshit. But hey ? live and let live is what I say!


[quote] Because the Hillsborough families were right all along and the police, the Sun and people like you were wrong and it took 23 years for the full enormity of the police cover up to come out. [/quote]

In other words largely political then David. Okay, I'll buy that.

And where was I "wrong"?! You obviously haven't been paying attention, because at several points in this thread I've AGREED with you (and the report) that the police fucked up, I've AGREED with you (and the report) that there was an inexcusable cover-up and lies, I've AGREED with you (and the report) that the stadium was not fit for purpose and I've AGREED with you (and others) that heads should roll as a result of the report. And moreover, I've held that view for many years.

So you see David, we're not actually all that far apart after all ? yet there you are, getting all animated, cantankerous and hot under the collar. You've got to love the irony!

The only area as far as I can see on which we fundamentally disagree is that I'm not entirely convinced on the true impartiality of the panel, and its full objectivity and neutrality by failing to apportion *any* blame *whatsoever* to any fans (or groups of fans).

[quote]PERHAPS YOU CAN COME UP WITH A SILLY LITTLE EXPLANATION AS TO WHY TAYLOR "WHITEWASHED" LIVERPOOL FANS INVOLVEMENT OUT OF THE REPORT. [/quote]

How about the same silly little explanation that the Hillsborough Justice Campaign themselves have put forward for Taylor's interim conclusions (albeit not with respect to whitewashing the involvement of fans). I quote:

"Perhaps it was politically expedient in the early days after the disaster when feelings were running so high to appear to be giving the people what they wanted."

(taken from here: )

Taylor was actually critical of the behaviour of some fans before, during and after, but he stopped short of apportioning any blame on the fans. Perhaps he deliberately downplayed their actions so as not to further inflame emotions in Liverpool at a difficult time and (in the words of the HJC themselves) give the public what they want?

Political expediency, David.

- Eric

Like I predicted. Hilarious!!!!

I point out "Because the Hillsborough families were right all along and the police, the Sun and people like you were wrong and it took 23 years for the full enormity of the police cover up to come out. "

And you chirp up "And where was I "wrong"?! "

You were wrong Very Flat Eric, because you stated previously in this thread

"But when all's said and done, if there hadn't been so many fans without tickets causing a ruck at the back in the first place, the disaster would never have happened.

Plenty of collective blame to go round on all sides".

And yet in your post here "but he (taylor) stopped short of apportioning any blame on the fans."

Just as the Independent Panel confirmed that the fans did not cause the disaster. SO the fans said you were wrong, ERic in what you have stated above and the Taylor and Independent Panel reports back up that you were wrong and the fans were right.

So to summarise Very Flat Eric your argument.

1. The independent panel does not agree with me that it was ticketless fans causing a "ruck" at the back, without which there would have been no disaster.
2. The Taylor report does not agree with me.
3. The fans do not agree with me.
4. The political parties do not agree with me.
5. The reason for that is political correctness, particularly amongst Scousers. It's everywhere though! Even in Jewish Lords like Taylor.
6. I don't have any evidence whatsoever to support my view just a feeling,
7. And by the way the reason so many people disagree with me is through political correctness which is why I reference pc in every other post I make.

Like I predicted, hilarious!!!

Were there large numbers of ticket-less fans and did they try and barge their way into the stadium, as some have alleged? If so I don't know how the Police can take all the blame when it appears they were over run and faced with a situation they couldn't control. The real failing, if what I've just laid out did happen, was the fact the pens existed with the high fences, which would obviously make it fatal if ever there was such a rush on the turnstyles and into the stadium as I've outlined.

"Were there large numbers of ticket-less fans and did they try and barge their way into the stadium, as some have alleged?"

No.

The report linked to below will explain the causes of the disaster and supports the main findings of the Taylor report in that area.

http://bgafd.co.uk/forum/read.php?f=3&i=261023&t=260965

David Johnson wrote:

> Like I predicted. Hilarious!!!!


And predictably we have more distortion, selective quoting and general horseshit from the fingers of Johnson.

Take up the political expediency angle via a vis the Tayor Report with the HJC. Even they suggested that might be the case (albeit approaching it from a different angle).

And I stand by my scepticism of the so-called "independent" panel's objectivity regarding the culpability of any fans.

Cheerio.

- Eric

max_tranmere wrote:

> Were there large numbers of ticket-less fans and did they try
> and barge their way into the stadium, as some have alleged?


Video evidence proves concusively that nobody tried to barge their way into the stadium.

As for ticketless fans the Taylor report said this: "the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) counted the number of supporters entering the ground. They gave 3 admission figures based on their analysis. Their first figure was 9,267, their ?best estimate? was 9,734, and their third figure was a ?maximum estimate? of 10,124." The designated capacity was 10,100.

"And predictably we have more distortion, selective quoting and general horseshit from the fingers of Johnson."

The quote below is copied and pasted from your post. Do you deny writing this? It is unequivocable what you are stating here and it is equally unequivocable that the Taylor report and the Independent Panel report disagrees entirely with you in terms of the cause of the disaster.

But when all's said and done, if there hadn't been so many fans without tickets causing a ruck at the back in the first place, the disaster would never have happened. Plenty of collective blame to go round on all sides".

Anything in the above paragaphs you disagree with? No. then obviously no distortion, no selective quoting and no general horseshit on my part.

Obviously if you are ashamed to have said what you did, feel free to apologise rather than talk about "selective quoting" and "distortion".

DJ - My position is clear and has been stated many times:

(1) Police incompetent / lied / covered up. (2) Ground not fit for purpose. (3) Other systematic failures. (4) Fans' role in disaster possibly played down in Taylor report for purposes of political expediency. (5) Not convinced that "independent" inquiry was really fully independent. (6) Police and others found to have lied should be called to account.

That in a nutshell is my position. Disagree if you like, cherry-pick all you like. I'm past caring and have better things to do than continue arguing the toss with you.

- Eric

David Johnson wrote:

> Obviously if you are ashamed to have said what you did, feel
> free to apologise.


After going downstairs to eat a large slice of humble pie (washed down with a pint of your favourite cider), I've thought about it again David and you're right of course, I should apologise.

So yes: Of course the Liverpool fans all turned up nice and early, and were all quietly sipping from cans of Fanta while they formed orderly queues to get into the ground. None drank any alcohol, there was no pushing and shoving anywhere and they all had tickets. Every single one of them.

Any that were pushing and shoving or otherwise misbehaving were obviously Chelsea fans in disguise.

In any case, the Taylor Report (drawn up immediately afterwards to tell the public what it wanted to hear while feelings were running high) completely exonerated them. And so did this "independent" inquiry (chaired by the Bishop of Liverpool).

To suggest that such angelic fans with no previous collective "form" could in any way have been remotely culpable (even just a small percentage of them, even indirectly) is utterly bonkers, and it was all everybody else's fault, all of it.

- Eric

Eric I agree.This was a series of cock ups all round with tragic results.The police should be blamed for their attempts at cover up but when those gates were opened they thought they were doing the right thing in the same way as the people at the front not opening the pitch ones thought they were facing a riot.The ambulances did not go in early enough because they thought the same.Is it only Liverpool fans who never make mistakes?Those that went in without tickets never imagined the consequences but to malign everyone else and accept no responsibility...totally bonkers..trouble is thats what some people are..