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Hi,
I seem to recall that when he left Everton there was a real argy bargee with Rooney over the reasons for his leaving.

Rooney stated in his book (I use the term "his" loosely) that Everton manager, Moyes wanted to sell him and leaked details of a private conversation that Rooney had with Moyes about the little spudface visiting prostitutes to a local newspaper in order to speed up Rooney's departure.

Moyes sued Rooney for libel and won ?150K apparently.

In short I wouldn't put any value in Rooney's explanations for staying/leaving a club.

Cheers
D

[quote]Also, you can't seem to grasp that "earning power" and "marketability" don't (necessarily) reflect "greatness" (see examples above).[/quote]

I agree and never said otherwise. I said he's great because most of the top managers in Europe would snap him up given the opportunity. Even if it was for marketing reasons I gave a pretty reasonable assumption that it cannot be due to his looks or physique, so it must be due to his skill as a professional footballer. I'm not saying he's one of the all-time greats, just a great player. There are many great players. I think Joe Cole's a great player, but not an all-time great. I thought David Hirst was a great player, but not an all-time great (though to me he is!). I'd say Rooney's one of the top 10 players in the world....now we just have to work out how many people on the planet play football and work out which top percentage he's in. Better than 99.9999999999999% of the planets footy players? Even top 99.9% of top professional footy players? You get the point I'm sure.

And I wouldn't use Rooney's world cup form to judge him. Every tournament England have been in, bar Euro 04, he's been injured leading up to it. Two broken feet and badly strained ligaments this time round. You only have to compare Rooney's form in the world cup to Torres'. Both top strikers, both coming from injury and both world cup flops. And Torres' at least had the best teammates on the planet supporting him. If it's just about tournament form then is Milan Baros a 'great'? Look at Germany's Klose. Three goals from 25 starts last season and then went on to score 4 in 5 at the world cup. With a season like he had he shouldn't have even merited a place but I suppose the German manager realised that form is only temporary while class is permanent.

And I wouldn't compare Rooney to Van Nistelrooy. RVN was a target man/box player. Half-way between a Drogba and an Owen. He rarely played on the left and right wings, like Rooney did for nearly two years. He never sprinted from one flank to the other, or back 60 yards to make a tackle like Rooney did. He never got involved with the build-up play like Rooney did. The only time Rooney's played solely as a proper striker is last year and he scored 34 goals.

The only thing Rooney's lost during the world cup and in games this season is his first touch and a bit of pace. Your touch is like your timing in boxing: it's the first to go after a spell out.

Just been on the Man Utd website and looked at a few stats that surprised me a little. George Best was a player that had spells on the wing, up front and just behind the striker, like Rooney. He scored 179 times in 479 appearances. That's a goal every 2.63 games. Rooney has scored 132 times in 289 appearances which is a goal every 2.19 games. Rooney's goal ration also is better than Ronaldo's. Ronaldo scored 118 times in 292 games giving him a ratio of a goal every 2.47 games. Rooney's 13th in Manchester United's all-time top scorers and he's just turned 25 yesterday (I think).

Let's take a look at Drogba, last season's top scorer. At 24 years old he played for Guingamp in France, scoring 3 goals in 11 appearances. The year after he caught the eye with a decent 21 goals in 39. This is Ligue 1 in the noughties, Europe's 5th strongest league. Given at that same age Rooney banged in 34 in 44 games, in the worlds strongest (or second strongest) league, plus the Champions league, scoring a brace at the San Siro and a couple more against them at Old Trafford, tells me he ain't half bad.

Of course, all these stats don't mean much on their own. Rooney isn't as good as George Best was, nor as good as Ronaldo now. But I think they do hint at a player better than who you're making him out to be. I'm saying he's a great player and comparing his record with some other great players who've played in similar positions (a mix of up-front, behind the striker and on the wings). I think they show he shouldn't be embarrassed at being labelled a great player. I think those stats go some way to show why he's also a little more marketable than, say, Emile Heskey.

Of course, we're only talking about something that's subjective anyway, so why argue? I just have the top managers on my side and a few stats to back me up! You have you're mate Terry down the pub!! !laugh!

Now, after all that, sit back and enjoy this >

Sam - Eric Cantona was a great player.

So was David Hirst. And his middle name is Eric (yes - really).

Notice a pattern here? It means I know what I'm talking about vis-a-vis "great players" because I speak from a position of Eric-ness. And I don't even know anyone called Terry.

So fucking sit down and stop arguing.

- Eric

Fucking hell Sam you should do a PHD in 'Foromology'!