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Hi Mike,

I've read this tread with interest and I'm glad most of you have covered this particularly 'sticky' topic without resorting to insults and name calling which I've observed on other threads...

Back to the topic:

Maybe from age's 12-29 (I'm only 30 now) I would have totally agreed with your views on religious education, esp after the events of 2001 & the London bombings. I'm not trying to change your views over to mine or anyone else's, I was just stating a few points about human instinct and psychology.

I like to give people more credit for their actions without blaming something external that may, or may not, have an influence. It may be hard to believe in these times but 95% of peoples of all religions either 'lose faith' or carry on living by their religion without resorting to violence & hatred.

Have you ever surfed? I have. I wait for a wave along with others and when one comes we ride that wave........simple bliss lol. However if someones riding that same wave as me there could be a collision. I may be the 1st on the wave and another has joined on which is a dangerous thing to to. Do I try my best to avoid the guy who's clearly in the wrong, or steer my board into him to teach him a lesson? Whichever I choose to do it's not the waves fault is it?

We all have choices in life. I could get in a car and run someone over just because I was in the mood to, but we don't ban cars . Obviously I could go on forever with examples. Religion is a tool. A tool that taught right from wrong, that taught us how life began, that taught us respect. It's not religions fault that some use this tool for other means.

The latest scientific theory is that the universe was around a million billion times smaller than the smallest atom yet at the same time was as heavy as the entire universe today. That universe expanded to a trillion miles across within a few pico seconds. How does anyone explain this to a 5-8 year old?

Teaching children religion is not the same as forcing religion on someone. We all know we can choose not to listen to our teachers in class! I don't know anybody who got a job over someone else because they had a GCSE in RE!

I seriously believe we will never ever stop wars, rape, murder etc. We would all die out otherwise. Generations without war & murder would bring genorations of people not recognising the danger of war & murder! Take the extinct Dodo as an example of this. The Dodo's had lived on a sucluded island for hundreds of thousands of years with no predetors whatsoever. Natural selection takes this bird down the 'flightless' path. Why fly when theres no need right? Large flight muscles just take up extra calories. When Spanish sailors first landed the Dodo walked up to them curiously without fear. When the Spanish sailors clubbed them over the head and killed them one by one other Dodo just stood and watched waiting to be clubbed to death themselves!! With fear of death they would have ran away but alas they didn't recognise death by another animal. (Hence the old term 'As dumb as a Dodo' later changed to 'Dead as a Dodo!) We all know there are no more Dodo alive today.......

War, disease and murder are bad for the individuals involved, but great for us as a species, as the saying, 'That which does not kill me, maketh me stronger' People in power (or rather their advisors whom have the real power) know this, hence why there won't be any changes!

For the record I've always been interested in the sciences. For years this made me turn my nose up at religious people and such things as art. However as I've got older and learned more about a humans psycology I had to come to terms with the fact that religion, rumour, wonder and dreams are all part of life, for the near future at least.

Religion may be bad for you, it may be bad for me too, but that doesn't mean it's bad for everyone.

Regardless of what we think we live longer, have more possessions, have more freedom, more leisuretime, more money, more food along with less murder, less war, less rape, less accidental deaths and less disease than at anytime within 3.5 million years!! Life has slowly got better for everyone, even in developing countries (though not at a rate that the developed countries are getting things better I admit). All this and yet populations have boomed which should mean less money & food to go around!

I'm sorry for being long winded Mike, I just think that children without religious education would be devoid of dreams and treat like robots full of logical information and commands. Do we leave out Father Christmas & the Tooth Fairy too? We have fairytales of wild animals eating children and old witches boiling up children to eat. Thats murder & violence right there, taught to 3-5 year olds and forced upon them!

While your ideas come from good intentions, I believe it would be wrong to deny children the rich history and culture we all learnt about with no ill side effects!

!thumbsup!

Sam Slater wrote:

> I seriously believe we will never ever stop wars, rape, murder
> etc. We would all die out otherwise.


extinction is inevitable. if it's a consequence of our finally becoming civilised that would be no bad thing - at least, not when you consider the alternatives: war, famine, pestilence, natural disasters, god (er, strike that last one).

Too true, too true Mr woodgnome sir.......

However nature and history dissagree with our Eutopian policies and I can honestly say with a decent amount of accuracy that natural selection will naturally produce humans who assume they are better and worthier than the next guy. This will always produce conflict of some degree or other.....

Good point though!

Hi Sam,

You digress from the debate with driving cars and surfing. Religion did not teach us what was right from wrong only what priests and prophets thought was right or wrong. To make moral choices people do not have to be Jewish, Muslim, Christian ,Sihk, Buddhist ,Hindu, Zoroastrian or any other religion but do have to be free of the prejudice of childhood indoctrination.

Your naivety abot religious teaching of children makes me wince. What about the clothes they are forced to wear by preists and religious parents, circumcision,clitorodectomy and other religious child abuse?
A secular society would definitely be less belligerant and more tolerant.

There are more ongoing wars now than any other time in history and with modern battlefield weapons, many more civilian casualties, not to mention the recent World Wars. Look at Africa today.

Humans will always have dreams because it is biological programming.

To learn about history and culture children must be free of religious bigotry.
Mike Freeman.

Mike,

Sorry I seemed to be a little 'long winded' in my reply but I tried to give as simple examples as I could. It probably looks like I'm all for religion, and you wouldn't guess I hate most of what religions stand for, as most people hold lots of power over the masses over a few ancient stories, that were obviously 'made up', and have hardly any factual value. (In my opinion)

It just seems sad to deny children a religious education, at least in their first 7 years of school life. (5-12 year olds). I do think that once you become a teenager and have more ideas of your own that they should be given a choice for the last 4 years of their school life. I can't remember now but I'm sure I had a choice of subjects on which to study during the last 2 years of school. (apart from mathamatics, english language, and the sciences).

Don't get my ideas mixed up with supporting actual 'catholic/muslim only' schooling. I'm talking about 'learning' about religion, not having children conform to religious dress and ways of life. I base my idea purely on the educational point of view. At least then they know enough about the 3 main religions to choose one thats best for them (or none at all, as in my case).

Maybe we got mixed up on our main points, I'm not sure........

!happy!

Sam,
You merely reiterate your veiw that children should receive a religious eduction in spite of what I have said! Religious "education" for children is indoctrination.
Mike Freeman.

Sam,
"Children learning about religion" seems to be a contradiction.I think that to prevent indoctrination that all "faith" schools should be closed and the "history of religions " taught when pupils are in the last year at school.
Mike.

Mike,

I totally agree with you about 'religious schooling'. Catholic or Muslim only schools that put pressure on children to conform to certain ways of life and dress are wrong and overstep the mark 'within' indoctrination. They are also (I'm guessing here) more bias towards their own religious beliefs which is not the right way.

I say 'within indoctrination' in the previous paragraph because indoctrination -to some degree- is essential in life, (esp in a childs life, where they aren't expected to make their own decisions on which path in life to take). I mean, we're all indoctrinated in school life anyway. Mathematics, English Language, Sciences, Home Economics, Literature, Art, History, other Languages, Physical Education, and of course; 'Religion', to name a few.....

If we cut out religion from the curriculum then we'd probably have to cut out a lot of history too. One example of this is the story about 'The Queen of Scots'. Something within our own history couldn't be explained without knowledge of religion first. I'm sure there are other, better examples out there, but it's the only one I can think of right now!

Forgive me for the 'reiteration' but like I stated previously, I think the average school should teach the basics of the three main religions. Ie: Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Giving all three religions the same amount of time & effort regardless of your presonal background. It's better -and sensible- for future children to get a balanced view of differing religious beliefs through education, than to ban it altogether, only for them to learn a biased view from parents & family members within their home life.

Sam,
I am glad that you see the truth at last.!bow!
Mike.

Lol Mike, I just posted the same things but in a different way. !wink!

Now we have that sorted, we could pretend we're big time CEO's, pat ourselves on the back and give ourselves ?180 000 000 of somebody else's money.........but thats for another time !laugh!