Did Tony Blair REALLY have a choice over Iraq?

[David Johnson]

"I've always spoken about the principle of removing a murderous tyrant that has committed genocide on his own people."

!laugh!, !laugh!, !laugh!

Ah, the principle? So it is all about the principle with you is it, Samuel. The actual consequences, well they are something completely different which you don't particularly want to discuss.

Well we all know why that is don't we? Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria all choice locations amongst others for British intervention eh Sam?

Better to concentrate on the theory eh?

!laugh! !laugh! !laugh!

[Sam Slater]

As anyone can see following this conversation, I've discussed the consequences here and numerous times in the past. We all knew the consequences of keeping Saddam in power because we spent hundreds of millions maintaining a no-fly zone over Kurdistan just so Saddam didn't go on another genocidal rampage.

Again.....if David doesn't like us signing up to the Genocide Convention, maybe he should vote for a party that promises to take us out of it.

[max_tranmere]

I've read all of your's and Sam's comments, I've been away for a week and am just back online. I certainly think the invasion of Iraq and later our involvement in Afghansistan was pointless and did little good for them, or for us. Just cost us lives and lots of money. You ask: "do feel any safer on the streets of London despite this huge loss of innocent civilians and army lives". Certainly not, if anything we've just angered the fanatics and that has made us more of a target. Also I find your term "messianic Islamophobic" quite funny! Lol!

[max_tranmere]

An apocalyptic scenario. Quite frightening. Luckily nothing like that will ever happen - helped, in part, due to our close friendship with the USA. As I said earlier they would help us to the max if required, but in return we have to be their poodle.

[max_tranmere]

Lots of interesting comments there, I'm enjoying the sparring between you and David! Lol.

[Sam Slater]

Remember, Max, that when David asks 'Do you feel safer?', that it's a leading question to show that everything bad Islamists do to us is our fault. We deserve it. We goaded them into it. We're the bad ones in all this.

He knew that you, as a man that's constantly complained about immigration in your local area you wasn't going to come out and say you felt safer regardless of if we'd had a war or not.

For the record, nobody ever feels safer the older they get, even though we are. Facts tell us this. Societies mostly always get safer despite people feeling like the opposite is happening.

Even as a critic of Islam, I have to say I find it odd that people who grew up through the era of mainland bombings from the IRA that they feel less safe now. The IRA bombed us far more than Islamists have. Are mainly white bombers just less scary? The fact David wants to lead you down this line is telling. He can get you on his side whilst outing you as a racist in one swooop. Not that I think he's doing it intentionally - this is all about playing to your fears to get you on side more than anything but looking more deeply one has to ponder the obvious possible concussions in your answer.

Please remember that countries like France and Belgium were completely against the 2003 invasion of Iraq and didn't join in, yet those two countries have contributed a larger majority of fighters per capita to ISIS than participating nations like the UK and US. This isn't my opinion, it is a fact.

[max_tranmere]

Interesting that you say 'nobody ever feels safer the older they get, even though we are'. I suppose I do feel less safe, I remember the IRA bomb attacks on London and being quite nervous walking down the streets of the West End or the City for some periods back in the 80's and 90's, I remember thinking a bomb could go off right here any second. I suppose the fact the IRA mostly gave telephone warnings and also were keen, to varying degrees at different times, to negotiate, meant it was not as bad as the threat from muslim fanatics - people happy to blow themselves up and who are also unbiddable on anything.

One thing that makes me slightly less afraid though regarding this sort of thing is the odds on it being ones-self who is the victim is very very low, even if we had a 7/7 type attack every month. You've got more chance of being killed by a drunk driver or a mugger, than dying in an attack. Not being selfish though, our hearts go out to those who are the victims, but the chances of it being one-self is so low you can almost neglect it.

[David Johnson]

"it's a leading question to show that everything bad Islamists do to us is our fault. We deserve it. We goaded them into it. We're the bad ones in all this."

Blatant lie.

"The fact David wants to lead you down this line is telling. He can get you on his side whilst outing you as a racist in one swooop.

Blatant lie.

In short, adolescent tripe.

[David Johnson]

It's an analogy. Read what Slater was going on about re. North of England.