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[quote]I'm not going to criticise Islam for the sake of it.[/quote]

How convenient for you. You think Islam shouldn't be beyond criticism.......just as long as you don't have to stick your neck out and do it. That way you can't be labelled an enemy of free speech nor an Islamophobe.

You're just afraid. Afraid someone will think you're a bit racist so you took the easy way out. Which is what the term 'Islamophobia' was meant to do.....use the fear of being labelled a bigot to shut down debate and deflect/prevent criticism.

Why are you brow beating Cockneygeezer?

He has already expressed his view that some Muslims take the blood curling aspects of the Koran literally to support their own goals. That in itself is an inherent criticism of Islam.

"And as for all religions being the same..........what a silly thing to say. OF COURSE they're not all the same, hence my Jainism reference in another thread."

Clearly that is not what Cockneygeezer is saying "that all religions are the same" in the sense that you are interpreting it.

What he is saying and I am sure he will put me right if I have got the wrong end of the stick, is that all the great religions such as Christianity, Islam, Buddhism can be interpreted by violent adherents as an excuse for meeting their own evil goals.

Your use of Jainism is misleading. You are talking about a religion that has been in decline for over a thousand years and has an infinitesimally small number of adherents compared to the other religions I have mentioned.

"How convenient for you. You think Islam shouldn't be beyond criticism.......just as long as you don't have to stick your neck out and do it. That way you can't be labelled an enemy of free speech nor an Islamophobe.

You're just afraid. Afraid someone will think you're a bit racist so you took the easy way out. Which is what the term 'Islamophobia' was meant to do.....use the fear of being labelled a bigot to shut down debate and deflect/prevent criticism."

You can goad me as much as you want. It's time to move on.

Which is what the term 'Islamophobia' was meant to do.....use the fear of being labelled a bigot to shut down debate and deflect/prevent criticism."

Islamophobia means different things to different people. Islamophobia describes people who have a paranoid/delusional view of Islam and err....hate it.

Thanks for your support DJ. I can handle myself. Obviously Sam is in wind up mode and sometimes you don't have to take the bait. This thread is exhausted as far as i'm concerned. I can't reason with an unreasonable person. Me and Sam will never see eye to eye on this issue so it's time to call it's quits and move onto Sam's next anti Islamic post. (Which will be soon no doubt).

"Thanks for your support DJ. I can handle myself."

Point taken.

"Obviously Sam is in wind up mode and sometimes you don't have to take the bait."

I know enough about Sam's posts over the years to realise that his comments to you are in no way a wind up.

[quote]Obviously Sam is in wind up mode and sometimes you don't have to take the bait.[/quote]

Actually, I'm not winding you up. I'm taking everything you say at face value and being serious.

You started off by accusing me of 'hating Muslims' which was wrong. Your assumption was based on posts I make about a religion. My further posts were to explain how one can hate a religion without hating it's followers. You apologised and I accepted.

However, you then went on to defend your presumptuous accusation (EDL types use Islam to bash Muslims to you thought I was like them too), and said the lazy and false mantra that "all religions are the same". You also said no religion should be immune from criticism.

All I did was give my views on those points. There's no winding up going on here. I really think you're hesitant about criticising Islam because you fear someone like yourself will see it and think the same things about you that you thought about me. It's all based on fear and how you are perceived by others is more important than the truth. That's my opinion. Again, no winding up.

However, in my discussions with you, there's one guy who does keep chipping in. Calling me out while at the same time backing you up, giving you a nudge here and there to encourage you. You know who that is. I know who that is. So - who's doing the winding up really? It isn't me and I don't think it's you.

Anyway.........doesn't matter. I just want to put my points across without somebody getting the wrong end of the stick. You know where I stand and where I'm coming from now, even if you may not agree.

Peace.

"There's no winding up going on here. I really think you're hesitant about criticising Islam because you fear someone like yourself will see it and think the same things about you that you thought about me. It's all based on fear and how you are perceived by others is more important than the truth."

The truth is sometimes a pack of lies. 'The truth' can be manufactured and presented as facts.

"It's all based on fear"

Fear of Muslims and Islam leads to being anti Islamic.

[quote]The truth is sometimes a pack of lies.[/quote]

No. The truth is the truth. Lies are lies.

I'm only interested in the truth. Which is why I can both defend Muslims from the racists and criticise Islam when merited.

I get the feeling you're only interested in certain truths, which back up your view of the world. Probably why you ignored the Pew report I posted and instead made the topic about my agenda.

My agenda all along, if you've not figured it out by now, is to actually point out how bad Islam is for Muslims. That it's this bronze aged myth that is holding them back. As I said in my first post on this thread, Muslims kill more Muslims than anybody.......all due to what type of Muslim they are. Islam is in the same place now that Christianity was between the times of the crusades and through the 100 years war - only this time with modern weaponry.

My recent posts berating Islam is to hammer it home to people like you and David that you can defend Muslims without defending their religion. That this 'defend Islam at all costs' attitude doesn't help the debate or encourage moderate Muslims to create their own enlightenment period. Your blanket defence of Islam helps stop that happening, falls kindly into the hands of ultra-conservative Islamists and holds back millions - leaving them uneducated, sexist, homophobic, racist and mostly poverty-stricken.

But, hey......as long as no one thinks you're one of those EDL types it's ok. Your character is unblemished. Think about how this uncritical, blanket defence of Islam helps more: Abu Hamza or Malala Yousafzai?

"That this 'defend Islam at all costs'"

I don't defend Islam at all costs but i'm not going to get upset about your presumption.

"I get the feeling you're only interested in certain truths, which back up your view of the world."

Pot calling the kettle black methinks. Wrong presumption again. I'm not going to get upset about it and i disagree with most of the post i'm replying too. You are entitled to your opinion, which is all it is.

[quote]I don't defend Islam at all costs[/quote]

Whatever you say, cockneygeezer. Whatever you say.

[quote]but i'm not going to get upset about your presumption.[/quote]

A little different to presuming I hate all Muslims, don't you think? I mean, which one you you rather have presumed of you? This isn't like for like. Be sensible.

[quote]Pot calling the kettle black methinks. Wrong presumption again.[/quote]

'I get the feeling...' expresses my thoughts, not a direct statement. Again, not like for like with your 'you hate Muslims' accusation. Be sensible.

[quote]You are entitled to your opinion, which is all it is.[/quote]

I am. And I used data to back up my opinion. You just assumed things. Big difference.