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No one does to the situation you describe but that's not the current situation. As I poorly explained, currently everybody is being appeased (apart from those who don't have lobby groups).

You can't expect to have a common intrest/sense of society when what separates us is empathised rather than something that brings together.

Probably against my better judgement, I thought I'd give this one another go because it's an interesting topic with some interesting comments by others, but once again ?

[quote]Oh dear, Eric, you must try and get used to people disagreeing with you.[/quote]

? you can't resist the snotty sarcasm can you David? I do love the irony though ? coming as it does from he who stalks the forum like a little Stalin, crushing all dissent and tolerating no views that deviate from the "Johnson Party Line".

[quote]You lecture on multiculturalism and its evils despite allegedly having a personal life which has been a shining example of multiculturalism in action.[/quote]

Couple of points David:

(1) Given how you "lecture" and generally talk down to people on this forum, that's fucking rich!

(2) Your words not mine. I never said that I have "a personal life which has been a shining example of multiculturalism in action". You said it. You're making things up again. You suggested I ought to go out and make Muslim friends (or words to that effect), and in response I pointed out that I was married to a Muslim and had probably known more Muslims in my life than you have, so I'm perhaps not as "culturally unaware" as you think. That's all.

[quote]As you must know, a number of radical Islam groups have been banned over the years and a few nutters threatening to burn poppies is hardly a condemnation of the decades in which Muslims have been living in the UK. [/quote]

True. But the radicalisation of Islam is a growing problem throughout the world and you only need a handful of nutters to cause real trouble. 7/7 being a prime example. Pissing on war memorials is relatively harmless (albeit extremely disrespectful). Blowing up (or plotting to blow up) public transport is a different kettle of fish altogether.

[quote]In short Eric, you clearly haven't a clue what multiculturalism actually means nor can you come up with examples of the evils that you refer to, other than one particular virulent aspect of one particular faith, Islam. [/quote]

Translation: "Your definition differs from mine, I am always right and anyone who thinks different is a rogue / coward / idiot".

Multiculturalism means different things to different people so who's to say what's "right"? You?? You challenged me to define it so I did. I gave you *my* interpretation of it in the form that's been actively promoted and championed by the last two UK governments (paraphrasing their propaganda in my own words). Shit, I even tried to be civil and friendly about it (see my "Happy to, David") post, only to garner a snotty and sarcastic "It would be grand if after all this time of using the forum, you got the hang of threads, Eric" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean) as an opening retort, followed by a load of pompous blathering peppered with more sarcastic asides.

As for examples of the problems of multiculturalism, I could give you plenty of examples besides Islam. But frankly I can't be arsed as it's quite clear you have tunnel vision on the subject and couldn't give a toss what anyone else thinks anyway.

[quote]Swear and shout all you want, but in summary, you haven't got a clue what you are talking about. [/quote]

Translation: "Your viewpoint differs from mine so I'm going to scoff and shout you down as a clueless idiot".

Par for the fucking course with you isn't it David?

- Eric

I don't think your post has got us very far has it?

In short I have:

1. Provided two definitions of multiculturalism which are balanced i.e. one where families, communities, nations are a mix of cultures; the other where cultural diversity is valued, accepted and supported e.g. the Manchester Mela getting council support. Now you may not approve of the fact that this is a multicultural society in line with definition 1 but that is how it is whether you like it or not.

2. You cannot deny that your description of your life fits in with the first definition e.g. lived in Iran, Iranian wife, many Muslim friends etc etc. and so it is fair to comment that your life could be viewed as an example of multiculturalism in action, a mix of cultures living together.

3. With regard to definition 2 i.e. one in which cultural differences are accepted and supported by say council grants, you have provided a whole list of moans and groans without any detail whatsoever to back up your view that multiculturalism contains the seeds of the UK's destruction other than you are not keen on radical Islamic poppy burners. Though even here you are at huge pains to point out that their being against the Iraq war is not necessarily any different to your own view on the war.

You haven't exactly made a convincing argument to back up your view that multiculturalism contains the seeds of the UK's destruction, have you?

Note like the rest of my posts to you in this thread - not a single "fucking" this or "fucking" that.

David Johnson wrote:

[quote] 1. Provided two definitions of multiculturalism which are balanced i.e. one where families, communities, nations are a mix of cultures; the other where cultural diversity is valued, accepted and supported e.g. the Manchester Mela getting council support. Now you may not approve of the fact that this is a multicultural society in line with definition 1 but that is how it is whether you like it or not. [/quote]

If it worked like that all the time it would be wonderful. Just a shame that it doesn't. And nor can it, because there will inevitably be one or more groups (or at least elements within those groups) who will at some point seek to make their culture the dominant one - be it at a national, regional or local level.

One example at national level is Amjen Choudary & co. calling for an Islamic state in the UK. And at local level various ethinic gangs taking over areas of large cities and making them no-go areas for other ethnic and/or religious groups.


[quote]2. You cannot deny that your description of your life fits in with the first definition e.g. lived in Iran, Iranian wife, many Muslim friends etc etc. and so it is fair to comment that your life could be viewed as an example of multiculturalism in action, a mix of cultures living together. [/quote]

At the "micro" level sure. But not at the "macro" level.

At the micro level you'll always find individuals of different cultures who will get along fine and integrate with no problem. Probably even the vast majority of individuals.

It's at the macro level where the problems start, and it only takes a small but vocal and aggressive minority to upset the whole apple cart - if we let them. And I don't think that successive UK governments have done nearly enough to clamp down on those elements: A largely spineless bunch of incompetents who are additionally hamstrung my the ECHR and the EU are never going to get very far in that area.


[quote]3. With regard to definition 2 i.e. one in which cultural differences are accepted and supported by say council grants, you have provided a whole list of moans and groans without any detail whatsoever to back up your view that multiculturalism contains the seeds of the UK's destruction other than you are not keen on radical Islamic poppy burners. Though even here you are at huge pains to point out that their being against the Iraq war is not necessarily any different to your own view on the war. [/quote]

No!!! YOU went to great pains trying to draw that VERY dubious parallel.

I said I was 'pro' the troops but 'anti' the war. And I am also 'anti' violence (including in the pursuit of political ends).

The poppy-burners are not only 'anti' the war but are also 'anti' the troops and very much 'pro' violence, and its disingenuous (to the point of insulting) to lump me in with those bastards.


[quote]Note like the rest of my posts to you in this thread - not a single "fucking" this or "fucking" that. [/quote]

Congratulations.

- Eric

"One example at national level is Amjen Choudary & co. calling for an Islamic state in the UK"

You can hardly argue Choudary is making much progress in meeting his aim can you? Any signs that you are living in an Islamic state round your way?

"And at local level various ethinic gangs taking over areas of large cities and making them no-go areas for other ethnic and/or religious groups."

Never had any problem getting a curry in Rusholme in Manchester, the centre of the Indian community. Nor any problems wandering round Bradford. Perhaps you can provide a link to those areas where I as a white man would not be able to wander round, because I have had no problems whatsoever throughout my life in a whole range of multicultural/predominantly Asian or West Indian areas? The Somali club in Liverpool 8, what a dive!!!

"At the micro level you'll always find individuals of different cultures who will get along fine and integrate with no problem. Probably even the vast majority of individuals.

It's at the macro level where the problems start, and it only takes a small but vocal and aggressive minority to upset the whole apple cart - if we let them. And I don't think that successive UK governments have done nearly enough to clamp down on those elements: A largely spineless bunch of incompetents who are additionally hamstrung my the ECHR and the EU are never going to get very far in that area."

YOu need to read the above again. It is nonsensical. On the one hand you talk about people from different cultures getting along fine "probably the vast majority of individuals". Well the "vast majority of individuals" is the macro level isnt it by default?" In any community you will get a minority of idiots as a Friday night out in Blackpool anytime of year will illustrate.

"The poppy-burners are not only 'anti' the war but are also 'anti' the troops and very much 'pro' violence, and its disingenuous (to the point of insulting) to lump me in with those bastards."

My you are a grumpy geezer aren't you? They are against the Iraq war. You gave the impression that you are against the Iraq war. All I did was point that out. CHill out.


In summary, you have totally failed again to defend your view.

Once again, no mention of Hindus, Chinese, Philippino, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist, West Indians etc etc communities to support your view that multiculturalism bears the seeds of the UK destruction. Only the occasional reference to the radical Islamic, hook nosed, beard wearing, poppy burning bogeymen who by any observable measures are very much in the minority within their own comunity otherwise we would have poppy burning demonstrations every day in all major cities and twice on Fridays for years now.

So all is well after all in the multicultural utopia that is Britain 2012: David can get a curry in Rusholme without getting rolled over.

I shall sleep better for knowing that.

Mind you the last time I was in Blackpool, the idiots on a night out seemed to be the majority.

- Eric

"So all is well after all in the multicultural utopia that is Britain 2012"

Never said that. Never will.

"Mind you the last time I was in Blackpool, the idiots on a night out seemed to be the majority."

Yeah, those whites in Blackpool can be a real problem. They can be very violent. Thank God we are living in a multicultural society. Eh? At least some of those Muslims don't get pissed up of a weekend.

Whoa, WHOA!!!! Only I'm allowed to use the proper quote formatting 'round 'ere.

Cut it out.

Did you notice when you replied..

"So all is well after all in the multicultural utopia that is Britain 2012 because Dave can get his curry without being rolled over"

and I responded "Never said that, never will" did you spot that I didn't go off into a rant

"There you go again Eric, misinterpreting what I say. I could respond as part of the discussion but what is the fucking point? You are not interested in a discussion are you Eric? All you are interested in is bellittling forumites and trying to impose your views on me and the rest of the forumites".

But I didn't Eric. Why? Because Eric, that is clearly your shtick!!

More than 1 in 3 people who took the census in London were born in another country.