Will we ever have REAL democracy?

[Sarah Kelly]

Ok now im even more confused as ,where you say freedom is already someones birthright and they shouldnt be encouraged to fight for it there"s the fall of the berlin wall, The Tianniman Square Massacre,
Martin luther king/the civil rights movement in america in the 60"s( Black males couldnt even use the same toilets as whites- probaly because the whites wanted to feel superior,which is harder to do when constantly looking at cocks bigger than yours (pls excuse the stereo typing-its a joke) hence seperate urinals..... If someone is oppressed,their not going to be given any freedoms without fighting for them...(Suffragettes and the womens vote for instance).....Child labour /the workhouses in the uk historically ,and throughout the world now............... I get the idea around the thought process and the evolution of ideas and systems,and they gnerally work for the masses- but i suspect to be "free" individually you need to have enormous wealth,to be able to stick two fingers up,and determine the path your life is going to take..... Imagine, your born into an economic blackspot(mining,shipping,steel,cotton weaving-take your pick).. How "Free" can that person be ,growing up in poverty,surrounded by crime,drugs,etc....yet someone born on the same day 100 miles away can be getting a new mini metro on their 18th Birthday..... Freedom IS a birthright-no argument there....but i just have this niggling feeling that not EVERYONE is, or ever will be, Free........

[Sarah Kelly]

ps...1) open minded yes,mostly... I certainly dont think my view is right on everything i have an opinion on-its JUST an opinion,and im intelligent/dumb enough to embrace a different perspective if shown a better alternative...( See how i refrained from any" as well as an open mind,theres my legs,mouth....etc,gags).. 2) Challenged or patronised- I find Being patronised much less challenging of the two, tho can be amused by both equally....!wink!

[Muffinman]

OK. There's a technique to this. It's a matter of paying real close attention to the way we think - the habits of mind that are so automatic that we never usually see them, let alone question them.

All the examples you list of man's inhumanity to man, of class oppression and racism, have behind them some emotional impetus that you have given them. Can you see that when you are emotionally invested in something there is a sense in which you are not really present?

For example, if you are enfolded in your lover's arms after making love, I'm sure you feel as though all is right with the world - you feel loving, and fully present in the here and now. If your thoughts then drift off in the direction of man's inhumanity to man, you might feel as though those thoughts are intrusive, negative, and unwelcome - yes?

But are you not responsible for the things you choose to think about or dwell on? Of course you are.

Mandela, and Ghandi, were both imprisoned, but their minds were not clouded by self-pity, or doubt. Equally free, too, was the mind of Malcolm X or some of the Black Panthers - they took action "by any means necessary".

But for the vast majority of us, these issues are hammered into us by the world outside ourself - by the mass media and those who want to recruit us to their "solution" to a "problem" they have framed themselves.

Usually, if we don't actually get up and do something (which is how I became a revolutionary - someone tried to sell me a paper on the street with a photo of an Asian woman who'd been firebombed by racists somewhere in Britain), then we at least accept the opinion that's on offer.

To me, this seems robotic - it means that not only do I feel unable to change the world, but I am unconsciously allowing the world to change me. It means that I have become a victim.

So, the choice is - and it is just a choice - would I rather be a victim, or would I rather be free. That's the choice in any moment.

[Sarah Kelly]

Mmmm.. interesting - one mans Revolutionary being anothers Terrorist kinda thing,different perpectives of the same thing..... I just want to get them out whilst theyre still perky!wink! and spread a little cheer !drink!... Can you remember the name of the paper that ignited your interest? It is way too deep a subject for me,but generally people do interest me- im very much a "people person"...... (anyone that knows me can tell you i chat forever !)

[max_tranmere]

I'm starting to think that when Cameron and Osbourne win in 6 months time that the Labour Party may be finished forever! I wonder who will run what is left of it then. Probably Alan Johnson. Brown will bolt immediately, like John Major did after the 1997 massacre, and call in all the connections he made whilst in Whitehall so he can become a multi-millionaire as quickly as possible (like Thatcher, Major and Blair all did and are still doing). I really think the Labour Party will be in ruins, and may NEVER bounce back.

[Trumpton]

Not whilst 1% of the population controls 85% of the wealth!

[Muffinman]

Max - how old are you that the thought of the Labour Party ceasing to exist requires an exclamation mark?

So what? So fucking what? The Labour Party has always been the biggest obstacle to working class attempts at social change. If it finally dies, I for one will happily dance on its grave wearing hobnailed boots.

It must surely be bankrupt already - the Communications Workers Union are hardly likely to be paying their subs at the moment, are they? So it is being sustained by the banks.

Blair works for J.P. Morgan and Brown bailed the banks out for hundreds of millions. What does it take for you to wake up and smell the coffee? This is the biggest recession since records began , and faith in a saviour is barmy.

Who says we start poor and get gradually or suddenly richer? Why not the other way round? That's certainly reality for many people.

Off-topic, I saw this in Aldi this afternoon. You know the little design ticks on packaging that tell you something is "one of your five a day" or some other health message? Well this was on a packet of tea bags and it said "counts as part of your daily fluid intake". What a world!

[max_tranmere]

Muffin, when Blair basically turned the Labour Party into the Tory Party from 1994 onwards - the abolition of Clause 4 in its Constitution, saying 'I do not want the party to be solely reliant on Union funds anymore', and other things too - they have been bank-rolled to quite a large extent by the private sector. Union money is not as essential to them as it once was. The only sop that Blair gave to the Left, other than appointing that oaf Prescott to be his deputy (to make the Left feel they had representation at the very top) was to introduce the Windfall Tax on Public Utilities, an attempt to appease people in the party and beyond who still wished Clause 4 existed and that the party still had an echo of its original ideal of wanting the Utilities into State ownership. Blair employed quite a lot of cunning, there was not a mutiny from the Left, but I think a lot of that was to do with the fact many of them just wanted the party to be in office at any price after being in the wilderness for 18 years.