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Interesting comments there. I just watched Andrew Neil on 'This Week' on BBC1 and he was saying that we have medieval practices operating in Britain in 2009. There were women, associated with these male protestors in Luton, who were not permitted by their men to come near it, and are told by them to cover up in public with those masks. Why on earth do we tolerate people operating in a way that breaks so many of our laws? I hope the creators of this multi-cultural disaster that is now Britain are all rotting in hell!! So tell me, Roy Jenkins, how is it going down there? How's Lucifer?

Reggie Perrin wrote:

Excuse me it is just as much 'their' country as it is yours or mine. Expecting people to blend in, leave or face a beating is exactly what rather a lot of people had to choose in Nazi Germany. >>>


That's debatable, Reggie. What's the betting that some of these guys are illegals, asylum-seekers or have been in the UK for just a few years?

But in any case it brings us back to the point made higher up that irrespective of the legality of their being in the UK, or their "Britishness" by virture of holding a passport, they clearly feel much more of an affinity - cultural, traditional and religious - with the Islamic world than they do with the Western, secular (and at least nominally-Christian) parliamentary democracy that they're living in.

In which case, they should return to whence they came, or go find somewhere else where the culture and the dominant religion are more to their liking. Because if they really don't approve of the UK, then they should simply buy a one-way ticket to Khartoum or Karachi (or any other destination of their choice in the "Muslim world").

They're free to leave voluntarily - without the need for deportation - at any time.

- Eric

Reggie Perrin wrote:

>>


I left 20 years ago, Reggie - and periodical family visits aside, I have no desire to return any time soon. Mainland Europe is far more to my liking.

But I still watch developments back home closely, and it does upset / annoy me when I look at how the UK has progressively gone to the dogs.

Nothing against free speech, Reggie - but as max_t has already pointed out higher up, they're venting their spleen in the wrong direction. And I repeat once again - if they don't like the UK, they too are free to leave at any time.

- Eric

Reggie Perrin wrote:

>>


It seems that you're the one playing the 'race' card Reggie - not me.

Clearly you haven't understood a word I've said. It's not about "agreeing with government policy" - in fact, there's probably hardly anyone who agrees with "every aspect of government policy", and for the record I too think that the Iraq venture was cynical and ill-conceived.

It's much more about feeling an affinity with the the culture, traditions, language, political system (i.e. a Western secular parliamentary democracy) of the UK. And it's so blatantly clear that these people feel more of an affinity with the Islamic world than they do with the UK - so why don't they go and live there?

Don't like living in the UK (for whatever reason) - just leave and go somewhere else. I did. Many others have. Why can't they?

Besides, on a purely personal level, it makes no difference to me whatsoever whether they stay or go, so your assessment that my comments are "expression of your wish that they would leave, because you're not really comfortable with people questioning things" is not only wide of the mark, but profoundly silly.

And they can question away until doomsday if they want to - I don't care. I just can't understand that if they hate the UK political system so much, if they feel so persecuted and discriminated against, if they refuse to integrate (remember that a sizeable minority of these people can't even be bothered to learn English) and apparently have so many other beefs - then why the fuck do they stay?

- Eric

Reggie - you also seem to be overlooking the fact that Islam isn't a "race" at all.

It's a religion, a creed - and for a lot of its followers it's also a whole lot more than that. For them, it's also a political system and a whole way of life - one that's fundamentally incompatible with the whole Western secular democratic tradition.

And that's not the view of the Daily Mail - it's the view of Islamic scholars and theologians. We send troops into Iraq? That makes us evil to them. But troops or no troops we're still evil in their eyes. It makes no difference at the end of the day, because whatever we do we're evil, corrupt, godless and "unislamic" (I believe the word they like to use is "infidels").

Of course not all Muslims are that extreme, but that's the fundamentalist Islamist view of the world: Dar al Kharb (the Land of War - i.e. us) or Dar al Islam (the Land of Islam - i.e. them). There's no middle ground, no compromise. You're either with them, or you're against them. And that's what makes them so dangerous.

- Eric

Well Reggie - having been married to an Iranian woman for 6 years, having a working knowledge of Persian, having travelled a fair bit in that region and having known a lot more Iranians / Middle Easterners / Muslims over the past 15 years than you'll probably ever know in a lifetime, I'd wager that I've probably forgotten more than you'll ever know about Asian / Islamic Culture.

And there you go playing the race card again. You just don't get to do you? It isn't about "race".

But if you want to talk about "bigoted", "narrow-minded" and "conservative" - well, look no further than your average Islamic fundamentalist. Because in their own way they're every bit as nasty and intolerant as those morons in Luton.

Or is it (as you insist on bringing skin colour into the discussion) that you believe that only "white" people are capable of such nastiness? Is that it?

You also demand "explanations" - but you're not really interested, are you? Because I've already explained my viewpoint to you.

No - you simply want to continue pursuing that same (if I may say so) blinkered, narrow-minded and downright silly line (i.e. "any criticism of Islam must be racist because most Muslims are dark-skinned").

That is the flaw in YOUR reasoning, and to my mind rather disqualifies YOU from the discussion.

Your reasoning as to why I moved to Europe is also way wide of the mark. So - wrong, again I'm afraid. There are plenty of "dark faces" here (Germany) as well - and there have been since the 1950s. Turks mostly, but increasingly Sri Lankans and a sprinkling of Africans, and people from various parts of the Middle East (my ex-wife and some of her family included). So it shows how much you know about the changing demographics of Western Europe - and just how little you know about me with your wild assumptions.

And you know what - apart from pockets of some of the larger cities in what used to be East Germany, race relations are (on the whole) far more harmonious here than they are in the UK. It's by no means perfect, but it's much better than back home.

Why is that? Well ironically, maybe it's because we're not having all this politically-correct, multicultural nonsense force-fed to us by the German government - you know, the stuff that you appear to have bought into hook, line and sinker.

I'be tried my best to keep it cordial. I really have. But if you insist on persisting with making veiled, nasty accusations of racism, I see no point in carrying on the discussion with you.

- Eric

Eric, what troubles me is that the muslim holy book tells them to show loyalty, closeness, and allegiance to their fellow muslims, regardless of where in the world they are. It does not recognise country borders. So muslims in Britain have to show allegiance to other muslims elsewhere, they can not show allegiance to people in Britain. Can you imagine the problems there will be in a few decade's time? The immigrant birthrate is very high now, about 1 in 4 babies born in Britain are now born to parents who werent born in the UK. I can see us being on the verge of a civil war in 50 years time. All these nieve idiots years ago who thought everyone would just melt together. There has not been one day since mass immgiration started where there haven't been problems.

I re-state what I stated earlier: people who come here should show loyalty and allegiance to this country or they can fuck off back to where they came from. This is courteous and it is poilite. They demand loyalty (and money and, ironically, protection) FROM Britain, so they can show loyalty TO Britain. By the way did you see those emails printed in some newspapers yesterday that had been sent by members of the Security Services to each other, around the time when Blair was considering attacking Iraq? These have been released under the Freedom Of Imformation Act. It clearly shows that even the Security Services thought there was little justificaion and that Blair was going to do it anyway. They imply he was willing to stretch the truth on various things in order to go ahead with the attack anyway. We all know Blair lied - now it has been confirmed! Why isn't Blair in prison? Why is he free and able to go round the world making millions and millions trading off the contacts he made when in Government? It's all wrong! He should be in an 8 by 8 cell for the rest of his life. Along with that twat George Bush.