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You're entitled to your opinion, fair enough but no matter how hard it is for people like you to accept, their are rules to football violence and is there is a code.

For instance using weapons, hitting scarfers, hitting women and children hitting people when they are down, picking off people in ones and two's.

I'm not saying these don't happen but they are a number of things that are frowned upon by lads involved in the football violence scene.

All of the mentioned, especially carrying tools, seem to be the norm for lads on the continent and that's why given the chance i'd happily go toe to toe with an 'ultra' without weapons and see how brave he is.

Give you an example, one of the man united fans who got stabbed was 51, fucking hell thats brave now aint it stabbing a 51 year old when he's with his mate and younger nephew.

You might think that lads involved in the scene are mindless thugs and animals but you'd be very wrong as most have well paid and respected jobs and are very interlectual people they just like a row now and again.

Afterall, there's nothing wrong with two groups of like minded people having a ruck when no one else is involved and innocents don't get hurt. Unlike italians,spanish,turks who carry tools and ambush families and normal fans.

"which bunch of scumbags is the hardest?"

Having watched the mighty "Green Street" I'd have to say that the West Ham "Firm" featuring the guy that played Frodo Baggins could probably "Do" the "Top Boys" of the "Shadwell Army" but Danny Dyer is the hardest scumbag.

God I hate football.

Them films are all a pile of wank and although portray some things right most of them are a load of bollocks.

UEFA will now fine man utd for crowd trouble.

Morally.............

Are football hooligans bad people if they just want to fight other football hooligans, without interfering with everyday fans?

I've never been a lout or hooligan, but I've always enjoyed the buzz I used to get from Thai boxing & boxing. Yeah I liked learning different moves, and blocks, and loved perfecting my technique, but I really really loved the sparring, and always left the gym on a high. Legally there's a difference, but morally am I just the same as a hooligan on his mobile, organising a ruck on some wasteland at the weekend, with like-minded people?

Following up on the Seville trouble, the Seville fans have backed up the Spurs fans and said the police went over the top. Apparently they held a protest outside the fans with placards reading 'Hitting people over the head - how typically Spanish' and complaining that hitting people over the head with batons isn't the best way to control people.

Well done the Sevilla fans.