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Shout by Philip Norman's a fine Beatles biog

Max - this doc from just a few years ago is well worth a watch! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC0DayWUY64

It's quite heartening in that Jeremy Spencer looks very well in it. Those Christian cults must've served some purpose! Spencer was in a bad place when he joined, but good to see he looks fine now. The tragedy of Greeny and Danny Kirwan seems to be tied into one weird, disturbing night in Munich at the height of their fame, a night that Jeremy Spencer didn't get involved in.

I saw Peter Green's Splinter Group in Sunderland about 10 years ago opening for Mayall's Bluesbreaker's. Greeny's band that night wasn't that good, quite understandably. They did however play a note perfect tho instrumental version of Man of the World.

Danny Kirwan was a smashing player who wrote some fine songs. It was Janis Joplin who popped his cherry!

Thanks for that, I'll have a watch of the YouTube clip.

A few other things regarding the early Fleetwood Mac and how some of their members went off the rails: I remember hearing that Peter Green, as his mental state deteriorated, had this idea that the band (who were by now very wealthy) should give all their money away. He had an autocation with the manager Clifford Davis which involved Green showing up at Davis's house with a shotgun and pointing it at him. I can't remember the exact details for why, it may have been because Davis wasn't very keen that the band gave all their money away, or it may have been over a royalties cheque Green hadn't received (which he wanted to give away anyway), but Peter Green was arrested.

Jeremy Spencer, he who walked out of the band, shaved all his hair off and joined that mad cult known as the Children Of God, has had very grim allegations levelled at him. I don't know if they're true or not, Spencer has certainly denied them, but it's alleged Spencer and other members of The Family (which is what this group of whacko's, originally called the Children Of God, later ended up being known as) sexually abused children for many years.

One of the most bizarre, odd, and actually quite funny things that ever happened in the history of Fleetwood Mac is also one of the strangest things I've ever heard of in music - namely how the manager Clifford Davis, who became estranged from the band in the 1970's and ended his association with them, put together a fake Fleetwood Mac in order to get back at them. This band toured under the name and people came to the gig expecting to, obviously, see the real band. One of the members said years later that people in the audience would freak out at the band and yell "where the hell is Mick Fleetwood?" , "We've been conned", etc. A Court case followed and Clifford Davis lost. The fake band changed their name to 'Stretch' and had a few hits with songs they'd written. I remember members of the real Fleetwood Mac said they had to do a video message where they introduced themselves, their role, and how they were members of the real Fleetwood Mac. This video was for the record company executives so they could know officially who the real band was. Mick Fleetwood said on the documentary I watched that 'it seemed ridiculous because we were obviously the real band as we had played in the band since day one, but we still did this video for the record company'. This whole affair is one of the most bizarre things I've heard of happening in modern music.

Trouble with discussing any form of art is that it's mostly subjective. What are we measuring? A band's overall record sales and airtime? Their technique playing their chosen instrument or voice? Song-writing? Influence and contribution to a specific era and trend-setting?

Like them or not the Beatles would finish fairly high on all the above.

In my opinion as 'pop' song writers they can only be rivalled by Abba. Some superb albums. They obviously didn't like touring. As for being the greatest, well for me no way. I was always and firmly remain a massive Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin fan.

>>>>Sorry I think they are hugely over-rated!
>>>>Decent band but no more than that in my opinion.

In my local Theatre they have a Beatles tribute band appearing soon.

This is 50 years after the Beatles first single, and about 40 years since they broke up.

This will sell out, and will be one of hundreds of Beatles tribute nights all over the uk.

This would hardly happen for a "decent band but no more".

I suggest you listen to Revolver.

14 tracks, all written by the Beatles (which was not that common in those days but was becoming more so).

Hardly a dud track on the album (which you cant say about most albums) and a HUGE range of musical styles from pop, rock, folk, comedy (yellow submarine), ballads and rhythm and blues.

Plus a track at the end, Tomorrow Never Knows, which was just so "far out" from any song on a mainstream pop album that it probably kick started the whole psychedelic style of music that started at that time.

Unless you lived through that time 1960-69 (as I did) you just cant appreciate the HUGE impact the band had on music (and song writing, song production, humour, fashion, hairstlyes, and a lot more) all over the world over.

Before the Beatles hardly any English band had ever had a number one in the USA. Once the USA mania for the Beatles started at one time they held the TOP SIX places in the singles chart in America.

The success of all British bands since then is down to the Bealtes opening up that market for British bands.

Not overrated and they totaly deserve their position as the greatest band of all time.

Link to Tomorrow Never Knows on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tisjsgsgtZU

>>>Sergeant Pepper's = Emperor's New Clothes.

Like all "art" it is very hard to judge it after the event.

Rite of Spring by Stravinsky caused riots when first played but is now played without a problem. Books are banned then sold openly years later, films are banned and then shown without a problem.

Listen to early Elvis Presley and wonder what the fuss was about, or Frank Sinatra in the 40s and wonder why girls screamed at him.

It is sometimes hard much later to see what the fuss was all about.

Many things the Bealtes did were totally new at the time, but are now commonplace, so if you listen to Sgt Pepper now you may think "ok so what".

For example before Sgt Pepper albums consisted of a track, then a short gap, then another track, then a short gap and so on.

But on Sgt Pepper the songs segued into each other, which was a real innovation at the time and was quite startling and daring, but now may seem commonplace.

Also the songs were daring, like Within You Without You with indian sitars, plus the huge orchestra at the end of Day in the Life. It was daring then but may seen nothing special now.

Plus the album took months to make, at a time when some groups would record an album in a couple of days. Remember all the fancy production work (by the genius George Martin) was done on just a 4 track tape machine when nowadays we have 8 track, 16 track, 32 track, 64 track etc..

Also it was a SINGLE ablum, but had a gatefold sleeve, a thing unheard of at that time. Only double albums had a gatefold sleeve.

Also the cover was so original it has become an icon of its time, with it being copied by loads of people including the Mothers of Invention.

I am not saying it is the best album they made, but it is is hard to understand the impact it had at the time when we have had such a huge number of albums that have been released since 1967.

Fair enough Guilbert, it was groundbreaking in its day but so was the Volkswagen Beetle. Yet no-one in their right mind would suggest that it was the "best car ever built".

Yet SPLHCB constantly seems to get touted as "Best Album Ever Made Blah Blah" in music polls etc. by people jumping on the bandwagon because over the years, slagging off the Beatles seems to have become almost tantamount to heresy.

Same reason that Lennon gets feted as practically a God by people who seem to forget that at the time he was shot, he was a washed-up, semi-reclusive has-been whose first album in 5 years had been greeted wtih average sales and lukewarm reviews. Then up steps Mark Chapman, and next day Lennon is suddenly "The Greatest Musician of All Time" etc. etc. and "Double Fantasy" shoots straight back up the charts to Number 1 courtesy of all the ghouls rushing out and buying it.

And I think that "Imagine" is one of the most depressing pieces of dirge ever written (right up there with McCartney's "Mull of Kintyre").

- Eric

I agree with everything you say. I said similar stuff earlier and people said I was wrong. The last two or three Beatles albums got average reviews and their last visit to Shea Stadium didn't even sell out.

The Beatles albums get better with time. Listen to revolver now or sgt peppers and you realise they reach heights of songwriting way above most pop acts in history.