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Good point, Andy.

I also seem to recall that there are large numbers of professional Spanish nationals leaving the very high unemployment rates of Spain for work in South American countries which with the notable exception of Brazil, largely speak Spanish.

[quote]Muslims, even the moderate ones, have little interest in adapting to western ways[/quote]

That's nonsense and you are showing your ignorance. I know plenty of Muslims who live their lives as you or I. A few things you may not know, Max:

The first waves of Pakistani and Bangladeshi immigrants in the 60s and 70s (I'll call them 'Muslims' for simplicity) were mostly very liberal-minded, forward-thinking Muslims who wanted to escape their country to create a better life for themselves. They mostly came from the larger, more cosmopolitan, affluent cities of Pakistan and Bangladesh. You could say, relatively, they were the more middle-class, educated Muslims.

Many of these immigrants adapted easily and satisfactorily, despite prejudice and racial hatred.

What's happened over the years is many Muslim families preferred their children to marry wives and husbands from their country of origin. Not only were some families paid handsomely for giving the opportunity to other Muslims to become British but I suppose from the parents' point of view it was sentimental. No doubt if I moved to Japan with my partner for 20 years and had kids it would be nice if my daughter married another Brit. The language, habits and mannerisms of someone from my homeland would sit rather nicely with me. It would be a little reminder of 'home'.

The trouble is that over the last 20 years or so many of the immigrants have come from poorer areas. Small towns where religion and tradition are much more important in the roles of peoples' lives than in the large, developed areas of the international cities. Many Muslims I know have told me straight that they don't like these latest waves of immigrants because they are far stricter and traditionalist than they themselves like. This, along with the numbers, has created communities which have become more and more insular and less willing to integrate. It's not something do-gooders have planned, nor the Muslims themselves. It's just been a natural process.

So, while I agree that multiculturalism has both positive and negative aspects, it's not correct to say Muslims have little interest in integrating. There are many that have, do and wish to do so.

Like all creeds they have their nutters. I have a Muslim colleague at work and another as a Golf partner. You could not meet two finer gentlemen.

You said:

Max, it was clearly a joke. In case you are wondering - there are no muezzins callng from the top of Blackpool Tower.

I know, which is why I said:

BUT IN YOUR EARLIER POST YOU SAID, ALBEIT SARCASTICALLY, THE FOLLOWING...

Next:

In terms of inevitability, one can predict population growth, based on birth trends, expected levels of immigration and the numbers of kids they will likely have. Unless there is a 'brain drain' like in the 1970's and a lot of people leave for high paid jobs elsewhere.

The problem is muslims follow the words of the Koran before following the rules and culture of the land they are in. It also troubles me how muslims view their own kind as the people to feel loyalty too, more so than the people in the country they are in. So during the Iraq war muslims in the UK felt a closer bond with the people of Iraq than with our army - even though the army is their army as they are British citizens. It is no way to run a stable country if large amounts of the population have loyalty, and a feeling of closeness, to elsewhere rather than here.

Max, it is still a prediction.

And many, many predictions are wrong and not "inevitable" as you make this one out to be. And there are many other reasons for population changes apart from brain drains e.g. wars, plagues etc etc.

[quote]The problem is muslims follow the words of the Koran before following the rules and culture of the land they are in.[/quote]

Did you not read my post, Max? Many first and second generation British Muslims did not/do not take their religion as seriously as others. Any valid point you were trying to make fell down due to your generalising. Do not tar all Muslims with the same brush.

"Did you not read my post, Max? Many first and second generation British Muslims did not/do not take their religion as seriously as others. Any valid point you were trying to make fell down due to your generalising. Do not tar all Muslims with the same brush."

No, but I bet they hedge their bets though, just in case like........

I see. So the strict, traditional Muslims are trying to kill us and the rest 'hedge their bets'. So you have them all covered as nasty fuckers we should watch out for. You have them all worked out, Liz. Genius.

"I see. So the strict, traditional Muslims are trying to kill us and the rest 'hedge their bets'. So you have them all covered as nasty fuckers we should watch out for"

I don't recall saying that, read it again, you said that. As far as part of your Illogical musings go the bit that say's " So the strict, traditional Muslims are trying to kill us" goes, the proof is all around you in the world every day.

It;s just the nature of the beast I think, if a state turns to an Islamic state from a state that was previously tolerant of all religion's, then what are you going to do? shout out "I'm not becoming a fucking Muslim", I don't think so, granted it 'may' not happen in the UK, but that's probably what the Iranian's thought. There is an element of believability to Max's statement, let's put it like this, it's impossible to refute.