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Does it matter-at all???

But Andy Gray got sacked for sexism? And you are claiming that should be applauded? Why? When you are just the same?

Nice to see that crass hypocrisy is alive and well on the OT forum. In fact I think that coming from a bunch of pornheads, it's fucking hilarious.

Because you do realise don't you that there are plenty of women (particularly those describing themselves as "feminists") who would call YOU a "sexist pig" simply for frequenting a porn-related forum and watching/wanking off over porn.

Why? Because in their eyes porn "demeans and exploits women". It "objectifies" them. And - naturally - they think that you must also have "inferiority issues" about your own sexual inadequacies. In short, in their eyes porn itself is "sexist", and so are those who produce and consume it.

And let's be completely honest here:

Have all you self-righteous hand-wringers banging on about what a "sexist nobhead" Andy Gray is, how shocking such "sexist" comments are, and making puerile comments about him being limp-dicked, never in your lives passed a throwaway comment along the lines of (for example) "women know fuck-all about football"? Be it purely in jest, or because the Missus has said something like "why doesn't anyone pass the ball to the man in black?" or "it's all foreigners who play for England now isn't it?"

Have you never engaged in a bit of cheeky banter with a female work colleague or the barmaid down your local? Banter that you both know is just a bit of fun and ends with smiles all round, but that the po-faced paragons of political correctness would frown upon because to them it constitutes "sexism" or (worse) "sexual harassment"?

Have you never in a moment of exasperation cursed "FUCKING WOMEN DRIVERS!!" because some school run mum in her pretend Range Rover has carved you up? Or because you've had to wait ages just to get past a woman trying to park a Smart in a space you could back a tank into?

Have you never commented to a pal that a particular woman has "a fine pair of tits", "great legs" or is "shaggable"? Or indeed that a less attractive woman is "a right minger" or that "I wouldn't touch her with yours, mate"?

You have? Well guess what: That's essentially no different to what Messrs Gray and Keys said in their various comments that caused all this kerfuffle in the first place, and ultimately let to Gray being shown the door and branded "sexist". The only difference is that you weren't caught on tape saying it, and they were.

And let's be under no illusions here: Women say exactly the same kind of things to each other about blokes. Women flirt with blokes and engage in banter. They regard men as "sex objects" when they tell their mates that "I wouldn't kick HIM out of bed". Women say that MEN are crap drivers, or that men are (collectively, as a gender) incompetent at certain other tasks. Most of the time that's probably light-hearted, occasionally they may mean it in earnest. But you can bet that at some point in their lives most of them do it. Women mouth off to each about men often. I know - I've heard it with my own ears.

But whether it's men or women saying these things, is it really "sexism"? Or is it more just part of that eternal (for the most part good-natured) battle of the sexes?

Another point to ponder is this: Gray gets sacked from his job as a TV footie pundit and branded a sexist Neanderthal for saying (in a private conversation that just happened to be picked up on tape) that "women don't know the offside rule". As a result he finds himself a national hate figure and will probably struggle to find work again (certainly not media work anyway).

However, in an interview with the Sunday Times a couple of years back, the odious Harriet Harman stated quite publicly and in all seriousness that (and I quote) "Men cannot be left to run things on their own". Yet not only was she not even taken to task by her party over this, she actually ended up as acting party leader. Just imagine if a senior *male* politician had said that about women (even just as a private throwaway comment said in jest but picked up by some hack with a mike). At the very least he'd have been forced to make a grovelling public apology. More likely his political career would have been over in a heartbeat.

Harman also spouted a load of totally unsubstantiated shite that she believed there would have been no recession if only Lehman's had been run by women. Once again, narey a whisper of condemnation, much less sanction.

To my mind there's essentially no difference between Gray (a man) making a daft, ignorant sweeping statement about women and Harman (a woman) making a daft, ignorant sweeping statement about men. Yet he gets pilloried and she gets promoted.

See the inconsistency, people? Like I said above, it's society's double fucking standards that get my goat.

- Eric

"Gray gets sacked from his job as a TV footie pundit and branded a sexist Neanderthal for saying (in a private conversation that just happened to be picked up on tape) that "women don't know the offside rule"."

I know it can be hard to keep up with the news Eric, which is probably why you've got this completely wrong. Gray wasn't sacked for the reason you claim, he was merely given a warning for that and taken off his job for one televised match. The reason given for his sacking was a separate incident which came to light, described as making a "lewd suggestion" to a colleague.

Sexism in football has always been a bit if a Gray area........!

JamesW wrote:

> "Gray gets sacked from his job as a TV footie pundit and
> branded a sexist Neanderthal for saying (in a private
> conversation that just happened to be picked up on tape) that
> "women don't know the offside rule"."
>
> I know it can be hard to keep up with the news Eric, which is
> probably why you've got this completely wrong. Gray wasn't
> sacked for the reason you claim, he was merely given a warning
> for that and taken off his job for one televised match. The
> reason given for his sacking was a separate incident which came
> to light, described as making a "lewd suggestion" to a
> colleague.
>
>

You're splitting hairs James.

I'm aware of that, indeed I alluded to it in elsewhere in my post. As in when I wrote: "That's essentially no different to what Messrs Gray and Keys said in their various comments that caused all this kerfuffle in the first place, and ultimately let to Gray being shown the door and branded "sexist".

The words "various comments" and "ultimately" should give you a clue there! But apologies if you need spoon-feeding and having everything spelled out and itemised for you.

I could be equally pedantic and say that YOU'VE got it completely wrong because it wasn't *just* the so-called "lewd suggestion" that got him his marching orders, it was also what he said at pitch side to that other presenter.

But being a charitable sort of chap, I'll assume that you realised that and were just trying to summarise in a similar way.

In football parlance, I suppose you could say that he was yellow-carded for the original "offside" comments, and then shown a red for the pitch-side stuff and the bit in the studio about attaching the mike. Is that "correct" enough for you now?

- Eric

[quote]Because you do realise don't you that there are plenty of women (particularly those describing themselves as "feminists") who would call YOU a "sexist pig" simply for frequenting a porn-related forum and watching/wanking off over porn.[/quote]

They would be, but they'd be wrong. I don't see women as sex objects, but admire sexy women. Yes, porn CAN be exploitative....especially with young naive females. If you look back over the years at some of my rants on the promotions forum I'd like to think I've defended girls, or criticised others in the industry if I think they've put a girl in danger or I've felt some people were garnering a position for themselves to exploit.

For some, porn or anything that sells sex in some way will be scene as lurid vulgarism. I think that's their problem. I suppose some of these feminists pick up on the worst happenings in porn, or the more exploitative people and judge the whole industry on that. A bit like many on here who cherry pick the worst in youth culture or Islam and think it's ok to tar all within said group with the same brush.................or tell a few harmless jokes, maybe. Yep, bgafders may be viewed as hypocritical by some who see porn in this way. Luckily most on here don't see porn in this way. I mean, anyone calling us hypocrites must be of the opinion porn is sexist. You don't think porn is sexist, do you, Eric?

[quote]Have you never engaged in a bit of cheeky banter with a female work colleague or the barmaid down your local? Banter that you both know is just a bit of fun and ends with smiles all round, but that the po-faced paragons of political correctness would frown upon because to them it constitutes "sexism" or (worse) "sexual harassment"?[/quote]

Sure, sure. To be fair to Andy Gray we don't know what his relationship with this colleague is (who he asked to place his mic down his crotch). Others have come forward, though, and said this sort of behaviour has been going on for years, and most of the crews hated Gray and Keys. I'm of the opinion that this last incident that came to our attention was the straw that broke the camel's back rather than him being sacked just because he was a little lewd with a female colleague.

It's funny how three audio/video clips of Keys and Gray being sexist have come out within 48 hours (and, apparently, all posted originally from a single youtube account which they've now closed). They've upset someone at Sky enough to leak these clips out, anyway. Maybe someone just got fed up of being harassed, or had had enough of their behaviour and set out to bring them down? Since it's alleged they 'took the piss' out of young runners for having no money, while they themselves are millionaires, I'd say they had it coming to them....if true.

[quote]Have you never in a moment of exasperation cursed "FUCKING WOMEN DRIVERS!!" because some school run mum in her pretend Range Rover has carved you up? Or because you've had to wait ages just to get past a woman trying to park a Smart in a space you could back a tank into?[/quote]

No. I've probably called them all the names under the sun but I've not put it down to their gender. But even if I had it wouldn't be that bad. I mean we all say things when we're angry that we don't mean. However, if I'd said it at work and upset a few female employees who proceeded to complain then I'd have to accept I said something wrong and take whatever punishment the boss thought worthy. I'd have fucked-up and would pay the consequences. Since I'm a customer of Sky I think I have the right to vent my displeasure.

[quote]Have you never commented to a pal that a particular woman has "a fine pair of tits", "great legs" or is "shaggable"? Or indeed that a less attractive woman is "a right minger" or that "I wouldn't touch her with yours, mate"?[/quote]

Again, of course I have. Ever since my female classmates started growing 'em! Again, though, if I was caught saying that by a disapproving boss, or disgruntled customer who complained, I'd have to hold my hands up and say that in the professional environment I was in, I was out of order. Please remember -because a lot have mentioned these were private conversations off-air, and so they should have some sort of free-pass- they were AT WORK. Being off air doesn't mean they were off the clock. They're guilty and were caught. Tough luck.

[quote]And let's be under no illusions here: Women say exactly the same kind of things to each other about blokes. Women flirt with blokes and engage in banter. They regard men as "sex objects" when they tell their mates that "I wouldn't kick HIM out of bed". Women say that MEN are crap drivers, or that men are (collectively, as a gender) incompetent at certain other tasks. Most of the time that's probably light-hearted, occasionally they may mean it in earnest. But you can bet that at some point in their lives most of them do it. Women mouth off to each about men often. I know - I've heard it with my own ears.[/quote]

I've not read every comment on this thread, Eric, but I know I've not once implied women can't be sexist. If others have, I'll let them defend their corner themselves.

[quote]But whether it's men or women saying these things, is it really "sexism"? Or is it more just part of that eternal (for the most part good-natured) battle of the sexes?[/quote]

Except some don't see it as good natured as others. Being of the opinion that a woman can't do a job like a refereeing assistant, though, is due to a sexist mindset. Can you think of a good reason women can't call offsides, corners and throw-ins? I can't. Again, when it comes to offsides women might have a real physical advantage. When judging an offside you have to be aware of where an attacker is in regards to the last defender, the ball and at the moment the ball was released (which may be one or fifty yards away). That takes good peripheral vision. It is generally accepted by people who've studied vision that women have better peripheral vision than men, on average. Men and peripheral vision, eh? As Keys would say: "do me a favour, love!"

[quote]Another point to ponder is this: Gray gets sacked from his job as a TV footie pundit and branded a sexist Neanderthal for saying (in a private conversation that just happened to be picked up on tape) that "women don't know the offside rule". As a result he finds himself a national hate figure and will probably struggle to find work again (certainly not media work anyway).[/quote]

As I've already pointed out above, it wasn't private. Nothing you say or do at work should be considered private. If they'd taped Keys and Gray saying this while they were at home, having dinner with their wives, you'd have more of a point. Even then, though, they must accept that they are public figures. John Terry's recent dalliances with Vanessa Perroncel were in their own time and private. His attempts to keep it out of the papers, though, ultimately failed. I guess it's hard for anyone to draw a line where your private life starts and your public persona ends when you're a public figure. I don't think anyone has the right balance.

[quote]However, in an interview with the Sunday Times a couple of years back, the odious Harriet Harman stated quite publicly and in all seriousness that (and I quote) "Men cannot be left to run things on their own". Yet not only was she not even taken to task by her party over this, she actually ended up as acting party leader. Just imagine if a senior *male* politician had said that about women (even just as a private throwaway comment said in jest but picked up by some hack with a mike). At the very least he'd have been forced to make a grovelling public apology. More likely his political career would have been over in a heartbeat. [/quote]

I agree with you here. It's hypocrisy. I guess all I can come up with is what I already said on my previous post when highlighting the piss-taking in Little Britain: the offended just don't complain loudly enough for society to take notice. It's more acceptable for David Williams to dress up as a mentally retarded patient who continually sticks out his tongue like a moron, makes screeching noises and pisses himself because there aren't as many complaining so vociferously compared to the numbers if he blacked up. Is society them hypocritical? I'd say yes.......but it is a consensus. You don't have to agree with the consensus but I'm afraid it's there nonetheless.

[quote]To my mind there's essentially no difference between Gray (a man) making a daft, ignorant sweeping statement about women and Harman (a woman) making a daft, ignorant sweeping statement about men. Yet he gets pilloried and she gets promoted.[/quote]

Again, I agree. What one must note, though, is that Harriet's sexism is coming from a woman in a still very male-dominated society. Gray's sexism is coming from a man in a very male-dominated sport. I guess men don't get overly upset at female-on-male sexism because ultimately it's none too harmful for us. The reverse is very different. It doesn't make sexism from women right. It's sexism without teeth and claws. Maybe in some glorious future we can all be truly equal, not just in law but in influence and power too.

Keys resigns:

I'm scratching my head as to how you came to the conclusion I was homophobic, meathead.

You really are a coke short of a Happy Meal.