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Nooooo!!!!!!

If you think there's a way to get REAL democracy - and it depends on another IF - then you are deluded.

Democracy - the golden calf of modern Western society - is simply a word that stops people taking their dissatisfaction beyond the limits defined by our rulers.

Fuck them. Fuck them. Fuck them again.

Freedom is when an individual sees through the cynical use of the word democracy - and it is NEVER used in anything other than a cynical way.

It was not the case in the 18th and 19th centuries - democracy was a progressive ideal - but in the late 20th and early 21st century, the words freedom and democracy are antonyms. EITHER freedom OR democracy.

Look what people are doing in the name of democracy - invading sovereign states, intruding into private life, prescribing peoples' lives, controlling human existence.

Freedom, on the other hand, is a harder concept to corrupt - and therefore one that we can and should defend.

Mmmm... im loving the "progressive ideal",corrupted over time argument but explain freedom? Who has it and why is it worth fighting for? x

Sarah Kelly, Freedom is the abiliy to express yourself, make choices for yourself, do what you please (so long as no one is harmed), without being punished for it. Those things are desirable because we all have a want in ourselves to do and have those things and we feel oppressed if we're not getting them. In this country we have freedom to make choices for ourselves, to complain, to write and publish things against the government (if we want to) without there being any penalty for doing so, but we do not have any input into who runs things or what policies they implement. People who run the country do it because they have mammoth egos and a lust for power and get into pole-position by promising things to people who may be able to help them, agreeing to reward other people with top jobs if they do, and so on. I dont think we have had anyone in office who we actually wanted to be there in the last 30 years - apart from Thatcher for the first year or two (at the most), Blair for the first few years, and that has been it. Every other year for the last 30 we have had people we've not wanted, and this includes all the other years the afore-mentioned were there, and the entire periods of John Major and of this twat Gordon Brown now. I heard this week that Boris Johnson wants to be PM. So the next 3 Tory PM's will be (in order) Cameron, Osbourne, then Johnson. When someone as well connected as Johnson states that he wants it he will get it. No one will want any of them but they will end up there, through connections, promses they make, deals done, etc. People largely vote against the opposition, not in favour of the person.

Sarah , if you come to prag i will show you romance .

!cool!

Muffinman, I couldn't care less on your views on Paddy Pantsdown.
So he was a bully in Bosnia. So fucking what?
Bosnia, Herzogovenia and all the rest of the Slavic States need someone to fucking kick their fucking arses and get them to do as they are told and stop killing one another just because they worship different fucking Gods.
Can't you fucking well see that you prick?

Another point: if black and Asian people join the BNP now will they be treated as harshly as white BNP members previously were? Will black and asian Civil Servants, soldiers, clergy, police officers etc, all be sacked from their professions if they join? I doubt it.

"Mmmm... im loving the "progressive ideal",corrupted over time argument but explain freedom? Who has it and why is it worth fighting for? x"

Two things, Sarah. First, I like your response. It speaks directly from the heart and yet it asks a question rather than volunteers another opinion. You have an open mind.

Second, I'll answer from my own experience. That way you are not being either challenged or patronised.

I grew up in a broadly socialist environment. Nothing too extreme at home, though many of my parents' friends were old-style CPGB (Communist Party of Great Britain - Stalinists - Morning Star readers). To them, revolution was more of a religion than a practical plan of action for the 1960s, 70s, or 80s.

Yet in my 20s I became fired up with revolutionary zeal. I wanted to change the world so badly I could taste it. And I was good at it - recruiting others to the tiny marxist sect that became my world, and inspiring them to the possibility of overthrowing capitalism.

I remember our weekly newspaper criticising the NUM leadership for funking a national ballot during the Miners' strike, because to us democracy seemed such an important principle to uphold. Many other left-wing sects later came to the same conclusion, but none had the guts to argue it on the picket lines at the time.

Then followed years of gradual disillusionment, watching working class people continually put their faith in Labour no matter how often and how obviously it betrayed their hopes.

One day I just saw through it all. Not just my wanting to change the world and the impossiblity of meaningful change so long as I was caught up emotionally in the wanting.

But also why it had to be that ignorance among the masses was the precondition for myself to wake up. The collective ignorance of the world no longer felt like something I had to change. It just is what it is.

I saw that democracy was an ideal that was being used cynically even by revolutionaries who were prepared to fight and die for it - and yet they were just as full of ignorance of reality, truth, love and freedom as were their enemies.

In all this seeing through things - which is a deepening process rather than an event - it became self-evident that reality, truth, love, and freedom are not of the same nature as words like democracy.

Rather, they are REAL. They must be realised as being here now - and simply as aspects or faces of what I am - and what you are.

So, to answer your question - we all have freedom, it is inherent in our humanity - our natural state. Many people would deny that it is true for them, and I don't mind. It doesn't alter my understanding one iota.

From this perspective, therefore, freedom is not something to encourage other people to fight for. It is already their birthright. x

Sounds dangerous !laughs! will you show me the sights.....!happy!..

Not dangerous - but it does require a certain vulnerability to maintain this perspective. Many people get glimpses of it and then let other people pull them back into the usual perspective - which is the "popular" way to see things.

When people here argue about democracy, they may define it differently, but they each want THEIR view to become the popular choice.

What sights would you like to see? I might be up for it.

Thanks max- agree (mostly)except re electing boris as president-He is an intelligent guy, but needs to engage brain before mouth or no one will put up with him- eg when he says the northwest needs to invest in london before investing in the northwest! He can make me laugh!laugh!,cry !tears! AND pull my hair out !furious!all at the same time ...