Re: Sam
Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:25 pm
No, you said things are WORSE (you used capital letters to emphasise this).
If you are going on the body count alone, then you may be right. Fact is, Saddam controlled the press and TV. People in the know were routinely killed so little news got out of what really was going on. Things may look worse now because the killing and violence is out in the open rather than in secret death camps and unmarked graves in the desert. When Saddam did most of his killing, we didn't have foreign journalists reporting it, 24 hour news channels and social media. Saddam never put videos up on Twitter showing his execution squads.
The Document Centre for Human Rights in Iraq estimate that Saddam executed around 600,000 civilians during his time as leader. Human Rights Watch reports that he killed an estimated 100,000 Kurds during the Anfal and another 500,000 people were killed during the Iran/Iraq war. You are free to blame Saddam, at least in part, for the estimated 730,000 Iranians that died in the war between the two countries too. That's nearly 2 million deaths overall. Then there are the 1000+ Kuwaitis killed during Kuwait's annexation what we all agreed was worth going to war over.
So, the death toll during Saddam's leadership is actually higher than the death toll from 2003 till now. Of course, I'm comparing the death toll over about 11 years compared to the death toll of Saddam's leadership of 24 years. He killed twice as many in about twice the time, so the killing is pretty much the same.
The difference to everyday life of Iraqis may just be a little brighter though. Well, at least for the Kurds. How long that lasts with ISIS on the borders, I don't know. But ISIS was born in Syria....a place we largely kept out of. And it isn't a given that Saddam's army would have fared better at dealing with them given how quickly his regular army surrendered to us. The trouble with living in such an evil, murderous regime is that people will jump sides quickly to anyone they think is the stronger. Principles don't come into it.....it's all about survival and backing the favourite. It is not outrageous to think a Saddam army would have run away as quickly as the western-trained Iraqi army did when faced with ISIS raids from Syria. Especially if they'd found out what ISIS were doing to Assad's army. Now, Saddam's Republican Guard wouldn't have messed about. They'd have slaughtered ISIS. Downside is, if ISIS were holed up in some village, using the people as cover, the Republican Guard would have just flattened ISIS, village and villages outright. I'll leave you and others to work out if this strategy would be worth it.
I've said before and I'll say it again......this is a generational thing. We won't know the effect of removing Saddam for 2 or 3 generations. It was a republic of fear where your neighbour or friend from school could be a Ba'athist spy. Saddam divided and conquered to stay in power and made sure Iraqis hated and mistrusted fellow Iraqis. It is no wonder they turned on each other first chance they got. They've been programmed to do this and adding religious sectarianism into the mix just makes it a whole lot worse.
I'll leave you with this: I've read on here numerous times about how our governments want to take away our freedoms and justify these things in the name of national security and keeping us all safer. Yet these same people think it was a good idea leaving a murderous tyrant in power exactly for those same reasons. It seems these people think their own liberty is far more valuable than an Iraqi's. I think that is a shame.
If you are going on the body count alone, then you may be right. Fact is, Saddam controlled the press and TV. People in the know were routinely killed so little news got out of what really was going on. Things may look worse now because the killing and violence is out in the open rather than in secret death camps and unmarked graves in the desert. When Saddam did most of his killing, we didn't have foreign journalists reporting it, 24 hour news channels and social media. Saddam never put videos up on Twitter showing his execution squads.
The Document Centre for Human Rights in Iraq estimate that Saddam executed around 600,000 civilians during his time as leader. Human Rights Watch reports that he killed an estimated 100,000 Kurds during the Anfal and another 500,000 people were killed during the Iran/Iraq war. You are free to blame Saddam, at least in part, for the estimated 730,000 Iranians that died in the war between the two countries too. That's nearly 2 million deaths overall. Then there are the 1000+ Kuwaitis killed during Kuwait's annexation what we all agreed was worth going to war over.
So, the death toll during Saddam's leadership is actually higher than the death toll from 2003 till now. Of course, I'm comparing the death toll over about 11 years compared to the death toll of Saddam's leadership of 24 years. He killed twice as many in about twice the time, so the killing is pretty much the same.
The difference to everyday life of Iraqis may just be a little brighter though. Well, at least for the Kurds. How long that lasts with ISIS on the borders, I don't know. But ISIS was born in Syria....a place we largely kept out of. And it isn't a given that Saddam's army would have fared better at dealing with them given how quickly his regular army surrendered to us. The trouble with living in such an evil, murderous regime is that people will jump sides quickly to anyone they think is the stronger. Principles don't come into it.....it's all about survival and backing the favourite. It is not outrageous to think a Saddam army would have run away as quickly as the western-trained Iraqi army did when faced with ISIS raids from Syria. Especially if they'd found out what ISIS were doing to Assad's army. Now, Saddam's Republican Guard wouldn't have messed about. They'd have slaughtered ISIS. Downside is, if ISIS were holed up in some village, using the people as cover, the Republican Guard would have just flattened ISIS, village and villages outright. I'll leave you and others to work out if this strategy would be worth it.
I've said before and I'll say it again......this is a generational thing. We won't know the effect of removing Saddam for 2 or 3 generations. It was a republic of fear where your neighbour or friend from school could be a Ba'athist spy. Saddam divided and conquered to stay in power and made sure Iraqis hated and mistrusted fellow Iraqis. It is no wonder they turned on each other first chance they got. They've been programmed to do this and adding religious sectarianism into the mix just makes it a whole lot worse.
I'll leave you with this: I've read on here numerous times about how our governments want to take away our freedoms and justify these things in the name of national security and keeping us all safer. Yet these same people think it was a good idea leaving a murderous tyrant in power exactly for those same reasons. It seems these people think their own liberty is far more valuable than an Iraqi's. I think that is a shame.