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Getting beaten off the mighty Stoke shows just how far they have fallen. Man U will have a hard job keeping their current squad never mind signing top class fresh players. No Champions League means no interest from the elite.

[quote]I'll be sad to see Mata leave, but Man U need more than just him. Essentially they pretty much need a whole new squad.[/quote]

That squad won the league by 10+ points last year. The squad needed tinkering, not overhauling. This is all about Moyes removing a tried and tested backroom staff for his dunderheads at Everton. He then increases the intensity of the training sessions which leaves the players with less energy in games - the old draconian 'must work harder' method rather than 'must work smarter'.

Moyes has turned a bunch of serial league winners into a mid-table team within half a season. He's the main culprit.

Couldn't agree more. Moyes inherited the United side that only got pipped for the Premiership in the last minute in 2011-12 and then with the addition of arguably, Arsenal's best player, Van Persie, won by a country mile in 2012-13.

So as Sam points out in little more than half a season Moyes has taken United to a position where they are looking unlikely to make 4th place in the League and now instead of winning the League by 11 points they are currently 15 points behind Arsenal.

And the reason for this failure? Moyes. Utd having lost their talisman manager, Fergie, also had to cope with a new chairman. So you thought being a new manager he would look for continuity. So what does Moyes do? He sacks the backroom squad. And the results are clear to see.

Yep. Last 3 seasons Man United won 2 and lost 1 on goal difference....with basically that squad.

I can see where he's going with the team. He's phasing out wing play in favour of a narrower 3 behind a striker, with overlapping fullbacks. It's a more modern way than Fergie's wing-play. It's what most big teams are doing these days, but why throw out a coaching staff the players trusted and which had brought so much success (not just 1st team but reserve and youth success).

Two adages spring to mind:

1. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

2. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

In the last game he started the match with 7 subs and not a single covering central defender even though Ferdinand was fit. You could call it unlucky in getting two central defenders injured in one match but when he moved Carrick into the defence he puts his joint-top scorer in Carrick's position when he had a very capable midfielder in Fletcher sat on the bench.

He hasn't given Zaha a chance at all, even though Valencia and Young have hardly played well this season. And what does Zaha do in his first match for Cardiff? Get an assist and MotM.

There is no set way of playing when Man Utd don't have the ball. They don't press the opposition nor sit back and wait for the opposing team to lose it like they have under Fergie this past 5 seasons. It's a halfway house where a few will press and a few will sit. All this does is give the opposition more room to move the ball around and tire out the players that do decide to press.

I could go on.......but I won't. The league table doesn't lie.

For those saying that it's all down to Moyes as that squad had won the title the previous year, all I can say is that, as a Chelsea fan, when Ancelloti did the double I was one of the people on a Chelsea forum saying that win was merely papering over the cracks and that a serious overhaul was needed.

That Man U squad won last year because of Fergie's will to win. The players didn't dare not give 100% Under Moyes, subconsciously many are just not trying as hard as before. Fergie could get a team to be more than the sum of it's parts... Moyes can't, and what you are seeing is just how average that squad really is.

Seriously, are you saying that Giggs, Cleverly, Nani, Jones, Rafael etc are great players? The Man U squad, when compared man for man with City, Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpool etc is actually pretty poor. From the squad that started the season only Rooney and RvP are of top quality. Januzaj looks promising (but then so did Mascheda and Hernandez before, but they never cemented a regular first team place) and they've added Mata. Given their shortcomings elsewhere, Mata is a luxury they didn't need and his arrival won't help them get into the top 4... it's far too late for that now. As for Fellaini... absolutely not the sort of player United needed.

Vidic is off in the summer. Only a colossal idiot would offer Ferdinand another contract. Evra is in deep decline. Rafael is far too prone to rash tackles and isn't a particularly good defender. Evans, Jones and Smalling are rarely all fit at the same time, and while OK, are not good enough individually or collectively for a club of the stature of United.

In midfield Carrick is OK and Kagawa hasn't been given a long enough run of games to show what he's capable of (but given he's a 10 like Mata, and that Rooney can also play 10, you do have to wonder about his future). Mata can unpick the lock of a solid defence, but has to play centrally. Put on the wing and he gets isolated and less effective as a player. He's not lazy, but he's not capable of playing the high pressing game Chelsea are starting to play, that City play, that Bayern play, that Barca play... and if they want to be successful again, that Man U will need to play.

The rest of the midfield goes from so-so (Valencia) to dire (Anderson, though I doubt he'll be back after his loan spell)

Up front is the only place where United seem strong, but RvP is now over 30 and looks injury prone again, whilst Rooney will seemingly always give his all for the cause... so long as he can hold the club to ransom every few years.

Anyone who doesn't think a major overhaul is required is living in cloud cuckoo land

With Vidic going the rebuild is starting to look seriously expensive...with idiots like PSG offering lunatic money for anyone who takes their fancy I can see Manure being outbid and ending up with second or third choice players.

"For those saying that it's all down to Moyes as that squad had won the title the previous year, all I can say is that, as a Chelsea fan, when Ancelloti did the double I was one of the people on a Chelsea forum saying that win was merely papering over the cracks and that a serious overhaul was needed."

I think it is clearly all down to Moyes that Man Utd are where they are this season. That isn't to say that like all teams, Utd don't need to make changes, they do - Vidic is leaving, Ferdinand and Evra are coming to the end of their careers etc. etc.

But the bottom line is that Moyes has taken a team that got pipped at the post in the 2011-12 season in the last game, won the 2012-13 season by 11 points and in little more than half a season converted them into an outfit that is 9 points and a vastly inferior goal difference behind 4th place Liverpool, never mind the leaders.

Players who have won the League by a country mile do not become old, knackered, sub-standard, poor players simply as a result of taking a summer holiday.

You mention the influence of Ferguson in terms of not accepting second best, but that in itself is a point against Moyes. Moyes has won absolutely nothing and therefore, it was inevitable that he would struggle to have authority with a bunch of players who have won everything. It didn't need to be like this. There are a number of managers out there with good track records in motivating not necessarily the best teams to win major trophies. Mourinho is a classic example.

Unfortunately, I suspect that control freak Fergie was given too much say in the appointment of his replacement and went for a British manager with no track record who would not be a threat to him in terms of criticising some of the buys in the past etc etc as the likes of Mourinho might well have or a manager with much more expertise than Moyes.

[quote]That Man U squad won last year because of Fergie's will to win. The players didn't dare not give 100% Under Moyes, subconsciously many are just not trying as hard as before. Fergie could get a team to be more than the sum of it's parts... Moyes can't, and what you are seeing is just how average that squad really is.[/quote]

Sorry, Bob. You've just made my point for me. Moyes cannot get out the best out of the players. The players are serial title winners and as David points out, won 2 of the last 3 titles and only lost one in the last minute by a very narrow margin (tightest finish in how long?) It was nearly 3 out of 3. The players are winners (whether you rate them or not), and while Fergie might be worth.....say, 12 points a season, even without a manager this Man Utd squad wouldn't be much worse off. Chelsea in the past and Spurs now are doing ok with an interim manager. This is wholly about Moyes and his Everton staff.

Here's a quote from Meulensteen today after Fulham (bottom side) held Man Utd (current champions) to a 2-2 draw at Old Trafford:

Rene Meulensteen: "United's approach was straightforward. Get it wide, get it in the box. It can be easy to defend against."

That's damning. Moyes sent the team out to cross.......and cross.......and cross......and when that didn't work at half time he sent them out to cross........and cross........and cross.........and cross. If that's all it takes to pick up a tidy sum every week give me the fucking job. Moyes is useless. You said it yourself......Moyes cannot get the best out of players. Everton are not doing too badly without him.

It's come to light that Man Utd had a deal almost complete for Strootman for ?20m in the summer......worked on when Ferguson was in charge. Moyes wasn't sure and wanted to 'assess' what he had and what he needed when he took the job. He decided to buy Falliani instead for nearly ?10m more money.

You say Mata is an expensive luxury and not what Man Utd need? Well who just shelled out ?38m for him? Moyes did, not the players. And he played Mata on the wing today.

Man Utd should sack Moyes now. This minute. They won't get top 4 nor get relegated so the season's over (they'll not win the CL). They then have 4 months to get someone in who has a good record and the pedigree to take over the most successful, biggest club in England. Moyes should be at a struggling club with limited resources.......battling for a regular mid-table presence, not at Man Utd (though with a bit more time he'll turn MU into mid-table regulars.

Having said all that, I think they'll do something crazy like give him another season. The 6 year contract they gave him might just save his bacon this year.

I agree Moyes has a lot to answer for, but I still maintain that the United squad that won the title last season was actually pretty poor, and were champions in spite of their averageness. They won partly because Mancini and Benitez didn't know how best to use the resources given them at City and Chelsea, and because of Fergie's ability to motivate and intimidate (and not just his players, but officials... how often did United ever concede a penalty at Old Trafford, for example?)

Fergie retired because he could see that a whole new team was required, and while he'd re-built teams successfully in the past, this time the job was going to be bigger and more time consuming... and at his age who can blame him for thinking "not for me, this time... time for me to go"

Moyes is no master tactician. oyes doesn't strike me as a great motivator, either. He also gives me the impression of a manager from the 1950s or 60s... run up and down some sand-dunes, then do some more running up and down sand-dunes seems to be the preferred training methods. Little wonder some of the United back-room staff decided to leave after chatting to him when he first arrived.

However, some of the blame must be on Fergie's shoulders for allowing the squad to decay so much (seriously... depending on Giggs and asking Scholes to come out of retirement??) Maybe the owners wouldn't give him the money he claimed they would (if he wanted it). Changing chief executive at the same time wasn't exactly a good move, either. You ended up with two new boys running the club who weren't capable of closing deals for new players.

Moyes has a lot to answer for, but it's not ALL his fault... the rot set in at United several seasons ago, and the glue that kept it all together left at the end of last season.

Spot on Bob. City lost the title last year by arrogant complacency (which may be repeated again this season too). We were the best side by miles last season (and this) but threw it away !
Fergie was the best and knew when to jump ship.