First of all, I've had a long day. I'm tired, so if I make any spelling or grammatical mistakes in this post, I apologize in advance. Don't worry though, this will be my last on this thread, anyway.
Point 1: When I used the word 'accusations', I didn't mean that you were accusing me personally of anything. You'd have to be fucking stupid to accuse anyone of anything when you know absolutely nothing about them, let alone never having even met them before. And I never said that I thought you were stupid. What I meant was that you seemed, to me at least, to be levelling some kind of blanket accusation against all 'masculine', straight men. That masculinity is somehow an act, and that we're all secretly engaging in homosexual sex anyway. I can't speak for anybody but myself, but I know that's not true. If your experience of life is other wise, then please enlighten us....
Point 2: You said that people finding some things inflammatory is a problem. I don't see how whatever any individual finds shocking is any concern of yours. It's not up to you to change that. You can't dictate to anybody what they must, or must not be, shocked by.
Point 3: I'm what you'd probably call 'ill educated'. (Personally though, I've never judged anybody else on my perception of the level of their education. But each to their own. If you want to sound like some kind of elitist then go ahead.) I'm not interested in psychology. Particularly not this area of psychology. So no, I can't remember ever reading any articles, books or papers on this subject. I'm merely drawing on my own experiences and observations on life. (And that's what the scientists concerned were probably doing, but their views have more clout with some people because they have degrees.) If the necessary criteria of answering your original post was 'only those with suitable credentials need reply' then you should have said so in the first place. (And how does anybody really know, better than anybody else, what's going on in a complete stranger's head anyway?) Oh, and no I didn't think that you personally conducted that study....
Point 4: The theory that 'we are, in fact, what we hate' does not make any sense. I'll give you a couple of examples: There are not many things in life that are so truly unredeemable that I can say that I really hate them, but off the top of my head: I'd have to say that two things I hate are the Nazis and Pedophiles. So does that mean that I'm really secretly a Nazi? Or a Pedophile?
Point 5: I don't know the reasons why some men get erections when watching homosexual porn. I've never watched any. The sight of a man has never given me a hardon. In fact, when I watch porn (straight porn, that is), I always think that the men are in the way. There are way too many shots of blow-jobs. And that does nothing for me.
Point 6: But, If you want to believe that I'm a homosexual (or anything else for that matter) then go ahead. It doesn't bother me. You, like me, and everybody in fact, can believe anything we want. I really don't care what anybody else believes. It only starts to bother me when the government, the media, academic institutions, etc, start telling us that we can't say this or that anymore, and that we should all start thinking this. (Governments in particular seem more worried about upsetting pressure groups these days, than worrying about what the general public, that elected them in the first place, is thinking. But, I digress....) It's amazing, the same people who are always screaming about free speech, are the same people who jump all over you when you say something that they don't like. Unbelievable! The duality is worthy of Orwell's 1984, The ministry of love actually being the secret police, etc.
Point 7: I'm sorry, Bamboo, I didn't mean to sound like a bear with a sore head. I'm probably just getting bad tempered in my old age....
But Sam, in the end my conclusion is, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. You'll never convince me to believe otherwise, and I don't care enough to try and convince you of anything. That's all I've got to say on the subject. Besides, I've wasted enough time on this boring discussion....
How queer...
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Toliverwist
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: How queer...
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Sam Slater
Date: 05-04-12 01:02
[snip]
They admit any engorging of the penis can come from both sexual arousal and fear/anger.
I get the impression you'd be angry at any suggestion the former is true, but not the latter? Why is this?
**************************
You are in error.
Your question is floated on the meaningless vacuum of your own erroneous "impression".
Sam Slater
Date: 05-04-12 01:02
[snip]
They admit any engorging of the penis can come from both sexual arousal and fear/anger.
I get the impression you'd be angry at any suggestion the former is true, but not the latter? Why is this?
**************************
You are in error.
Your question is floated on the meaningless vacuum of your own erroneous "impression".
I have asked for this profile to be deleted.
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Sam Slater
- Posts: 11624
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: How queer...
[quote]Point 1: When I used the word 'accusations', I didn't mean that you were accusing me personally of anything. You'd have to be fucking stupid to accuse anyone of anything when you know absolutely nothing about them, let alone never having even met them before. And I never said that I thought you were stupid. What I meant was that you seemed, to me at least, to be levelling some kind of blanket accusation against all 'masculine', straight men. That masculinity is somehow an act, and that we're all secretly engaging in homosexual sex anyway. I can't speak for anybody but myself, but I know that's not true. If your experience of life is other wise, then please enlighten us....[/quote]
No blanket accusation against all masculine men at all. I merely passed on a little anecdote about some 'tough' men along with some results regarding a possible link with between hatred and a repressed sexuality. What, for me, was a interesting and funny has turned out to be an irritant and lengthy defence for you.
[quote]Point 2: You said that people finding some things inflammatory is a problem. I don't see how whatever any individual finds shocking is any concern of yours. It's not up to you to change that. You can't dictate to anybody what they must, or must not be, shocked by. [/quote]
Who's dictating? It was a few links to some research and an anecdote. Again, you're being defensive and blowing all this way out of proportion.
[quote]Point 3: I'm what you'd probably call 'ill educated'. (Personally though, I've never judged anybody else on my perception of the level of their education. But each to their own. If you want to sound like some kind of elitist then go ahead.) I'm not interested in psychology. Particularly not this area of psychology. So no, I can't remember ever reading any articles, books or papers on this subject. I'm merely drawing on my own experiences and observations on life. (And that's what the scientists concerned were probably doing, but their views have more clout with some people because they have degrees.) If the necessary criteria of answering your original post was 'only those with suitable credentials need reply' then you should have said so in the first place. (And how does anybody really know, better than anybody else, what's going on in a complete stranger's head anyway?) Oh, and no I didn't think that you personally conducted that study.... [/quote]
I'm not sure why the 3rd point is relevant. I merely mentioned that one of the possible causes of homophobia would be being diseducated (I don't like the word uneducated). I certainly wasn't saying, or implying you're diseducated. And I never implied only people with suitable credentials should reply. All I asked was if you didn't agree with what the results of this study could point to, had you seen/read/heard of any evidence that would contradict the findings.
[quote]Point 4: The theory that 'we are, in fact, what we hate' does not make any sense. I'll give you a couple of examples: There are not many things in life that are so truly unredeemable that I can say that I really hate them, but off the top of my head: I'd have to say that two things I hate are the Nazis and Pedophiles. So does that mean that I'm really secretly a Nazi? Or a Pedophile?[/quote]
Nazism is a view on the social order. Your sexuality isn't a choice and is a big part in what you are. Again, we know of many, many gay-haters who have been caught with their pants down, so to speak, with members of the same sex. Ted Haggard is a well-known example. Priests running Catholic schools another well-documented example. Both fly in the face of your analogies. All repressing their sexuality and doing the complete opposite of what they try to portray themselves as. And lets remember that hatred of Nazism or paedophilia isn't irrational like a hatred of Gays. There has to be some sort of irrationality for it to be a phobia. If you didn't want to be locked in a cage with a hungry lion I wouldn't say you had a phobia of lions. It's perfectly justified to fear lions!
[quote]Point 5: I don't know the reasons why some men get erections when watching homosexual porn. I've never watched any. The sight of a man has never given me a hardon. In fact, when I watch porn (straight porn, that is), I always think that the men are in the way. There are way too many shots of blow-jobs. And that does nothing for me.[/quote]
But the conclusions of one of the studies is that the more homophobic you were the more likely you WAS to get a hard on while watching gay porn. The reasoning is still up for debate, but the findings are the findings. Your first reply to these facts was the response 'PC nonsense'. You've not explained what 'pc' about the findings of a study. Are you saying the researchers lied?
[quote]Point 6: But, If you want to believe that I'm a homosexual (or anything else for that matter) then go ahead. It doesn't bother me. You, like me, and everybody in fact, can believe anything we want. I really don't care what anybody else believes. It only starts to bother me when the government, the media, academic institutions, etc, start telling us that we can't say this or that anymore, and that we should all start thinking this. (Governments in particular seem more worried about upsetting pressure groups these days, than worrying about what the general public, that elected them in the first place, is thinking. But, I digress....) It's amazing, the same people who are always screaming about free speech, are the same people who jump all over you when you say something that they don't like. Unbelievable! The duality is worthy of Orwell's 1984, The ministry of love actually being the secret police, etc. [/quote]
You're being defensive again! I never said I thought you was Gay. And I've no idea why you're bringing free-speech and the fear of an Orwellian state into any of this. It was just a few studies and a little anecdote from me and all of a sudden you're fearing someone will bash your door in (not your back-door, don't worry !laugh!) and whisk you off to room 101. I bet your the type of guy who finds a small freckle you've never noticed before and thinks you have skin cancer. Stop being paranoid.
[quote]But Sam, in the end my conclusion is, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. You'll never convince me to believe otherwise, and I don't care enough to try and convince you of anything. That's all I've got to say on the subject. Besides, I've wasted enough time on this boring discussion....[/quote]
That's fine, Ken. I'm sorry I even brought this whole gayness thing up. It's rifled your feathers no end. And no, when I said 'feathers' I didn't imagine you dressed as Barry Humphries jumping up and down on a black mamba............or maybe I did !tongueincheek!
No blanket accusation against all masculine men at all. I merely passed on a little anecdote about some 'tough' men along with some results regarding a possible link with between hatred and a repressed sexuality. What, for me, was a interesting and funny has turned out to be an irritant and lengthy defence for you.
[quote]Point 2: You said that people finding some things inflammatory is a problem. I don't see how whatever any individual finds shocking is any concern of yours. It's not up to you to change that. You can't dictate to anybody what they must, or must not be, shocked by. [/quote]
Who's dictating? It was a few links to some research and an anecdote. Again, you're being defensive and blowing all this way out of proportion.
[quote]Point 3: I'm what you'd probably call 'ill educated'. (Personally though, I've never judged anybody else on my perception of the level of their education. But each to their own. If you want to sound like some kind of elitist then go ahead.) I'm not interested in psychology. Particularly not this area of psychology. So no, I can't remember ever reading any articles, books or papers on this subject. I'm merely drawing on my own experiences and observations on life. (And that's what the scientists concerned were probably doing, but their views have more clout with some people because they have degrees.) If the necessary criteria of answering your original post was 'only those with suitable credentials need reply' then you should have said so in the first place. (And how does anybody really know, better than anybody else, what's going on in a complete stranger's head anyway?) Oh, and no I didn't think that you personally conducted that study.... [/quote]
I'm not sure why the 3rd point is relevant. I merely mentioned that one of the possible causes of homophobia would be being diseducated (I don't like the word uneducated). I certainly wasn't saying, or implying you're diseducated. And I never implied only people with suitable credentials should reply. All I asked was if you didn't agree with what the results of this study could point to, had you seen/read/heard of any evidence that would contradict the findings.
[quote]Point 4: The theory that 'we are, in fact, what we hate' does not make any sense. I'll give you a couple of examples: There are not many things in life that are so truly unredeemable that I can say that I really hate them, but off the top of my head: I'd have to say that two things I hate are the Nazis and Pedophiles. So does that mean that I'm really secretly a Nazi? Or a Pedophile?[/quote]
Nazism is a view on the social order. Your sexuality isn't a choice and is a big part in what you are. Again, we know of many, many gay-haters who have been caught with their pants down, so to speak, with members of the same sex. Ted Haggard is a well-known example. Priests running Catholic schools another well-documented example. Both fly in the face of your analogies. All repressing their sexuality and doing the complete opposite of what they try to portray themselves as. And lets remember that hatred of Nazism or paedophilia isn't irrational like a hatred of Gays. There has to be some sort of irrationality for it to be a phobia. If you didn't want to be locked in a cage with a hungry lion I wouldn't say you had a phobia of lions. It's perfectly justified to fear lions!
[quote]Point 5: I don't know the reasons why some men get erections when watching homosexual porn. I've never watched any. The sight of a man has never given me a hardon. In fact, when I watch porn (straight porn, that is), I always think that the men are in the way. There are way too many shots of blow-jobs. And that does nothing for me.[/quote]
But the conclusions of one of the studies is that the more homophobic you were the more likely you WAS to get a hard on while watching gay porn. The reasoning is still up for debate, but the findings are the findings. Your first reply to these facts was the response 'PC nonsense'. You've not explained what 'pc' about the findings of a study. Are you saying the researchers lied?
[quote]Point 6: But, If you want to believe that I'm a homosexual (or anything else for that matter) then go ahead. It doesn't bother me. You, like me, and everybody in fact, can believe anything we want. I really don't care what anybody else believes. It only starts to bother me when the government, the media, academic institutions, etc, start telling us that we can't say this or that anymore, and that we should all start thinking this. (Governments in particular seem more worried about upsetting pressure groups these days, than worrying about what the general public, that elected them in the first place, is thinking. But, I digress....) It's amazing, the same people who are always screaming about free speech, are the same people who jump all over you when you say something that they don't like. Unbelievable! The duality is worthy of Orwell's 1984, The ministry of love actually being the secret police, etc. [/quote]
You're being defensive again! I never said I thought you was Gay. And I've no idea why you're bringing free-speech and the fear of an Orwellian state into any of this. It was just a few studies and a little anecdote from me and all of a sudden you're fearing someone will bash your door in (not your back-door, don't worry !laugh!) and whisk you off to room 101. I bet your the type of guy who finds a small freckle you've never noticed before and thinks you have skin cancer. Stop being paranoid.
[quote]But Sam, in the end my conclusion is, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. You'll never convince me to believe otherwise, and I don't care enough to try and convince you of anything. That's all I've got to say on the subject. Besides, I've wasted enough time on this boring discussion....[/quote]
That's fine, Ken. I'm sorry I even brought this whole gayness thing up. It's rifled your feathers no end. And no, when I said 'feathers' I didn't imagine you dressed as Barry Humphries jumping up and down on a black mamba............or maybe I did !tongueincheek!
[i]I used to spend a lot of time criticizing Islam on here in the noughties - but things are much better now.[/i]