Creep, creep, creep

[Sam Slater]

[quote]Can you remember the Americans' use of uranium tipped munitions in Fallujah and cluster bombs?[/quote]

Yes. We should learn from that.

[quote]Were you equally gungho about arming the Muhajeddin and training them so they could fight the Ruskis in Afghanistan in order, no doubt, to defend "civilians" from the cruel Ruskis?[/quote]

To be fair, I didn't think much about that. I was aged between 3 and 12.

[quote]Is there an equation somewhere that says 1 Kurd killed after the 1st Gulf War is worth 10 Kurds/Sunnis/Shias killed in the 2nd Gulf War and therefore the 2nd Iraqi war is justified?[/quote]

What are you talking about? I in no way implied anything of the sort so why ask me? What I will ask back is is their also an equation that says a Polish/Jewish or Kosovan life is worth more than a Kurd's?

[quote]I will leave you to the gungho talk of "removing obstacles".[/quote]

Gung-ho, my arse. That terminology gives the impression of an overly enthusiastic but carefree attitude to war. That is not the case. If you're going down this childish route then I may as well call you a complete pacifist.

[Sam Slater]

[quote]Those who dont do the fighting tend to be more gungho than those who risk getting killed, aren't they?[/quote]

What a childish, clich?d comeback. If anyone in the armed forces were forcibly conscripted you'd have a point. They're not and so you don't.

[David Johnson]

"Those who dont do the fighting tend to be more gungho than those who risk getting killed, aren't they?

Your reply
"What a childish, clich?d comeback. If anyone in the armed forces were forcibly conscripted you'd have a point. They're not and so you don't."

Merely posing the question, to be fair. Clearly your view is that the statement is not true. Though I suspect the statement is no more childish and cliched than one describing removing the UN as an "obstacle".

"To be fair, I didn't think much about that. I was aged between 3 and 12."

A study of history can be invaluable in terms of getting a wider perspective.

"What are you talking about? "

I would have thought it was fairly clear. You start by asking me "Can you remember when the allies rained leaflets down on the Kurds and Marsh Arabs telling them to help us defeat Saddam after his invasion of Kuwait? A good number did and then we stopped at the border."

as if this statement in itself has any relevance. It doesn't particularly apart from taking it along with the whole host of unintended consequences resulting from the second Iraq invasion and then building the results into a government's decision making process. Some people were killed at the end of the Ist Gulf War. Many, many more were killed as a result of the 2nd Gulf War invasion.


"If anyone in the armed forces were forcibly conscripted you'd have a point. They're not and so you don't."

This strikes me as palpably wrong. If you read any half sensible military history you will find there is often a disconnect between those members of the officer class not in front line action and those experienced front line soldiers who have seen comrades blown to bits in terms of their "gungho attitude", irrespective of whether they are conscripts or volunteers.

Cheers
D

[jimslip]

You simply can't help yourself can you, "I suspect in the case of Jim Slip it is because he is a dyed in the wool Tory Boy but just cant bring himself to admit it."

When someone disagrees with you, they must be labelled, "Trouble make", "Daily Mail Reader" "Tory Boy" and so on. As it happens I've never voted Tory in my life, however, I am, unlike yourself, able to think independently. I do not require my opinions to be operated and fashioned by a political puppet-master of any persuasion.

"Try and think clearly" David for once and reread my post where I stated that no one wants to engage you in debate over any topic that involves The Coalition because you are incapable of independent thought.

I personally smell a fat stinking rat when any political party tells me we need to bomb another country. I always suspect someone, somewhere is making a big fat buck out of the deaths of our young lads. One Cruise missile cost $600,000.

Lara and I both attended the futile anti-war march in 2000. We were two of 1,000,000 and I recall not seeing any "Students", I wonder why? Could it be because lefty rabble rousers do not incite students to protest unless a Tory government is in power? Even when a Labour government is about to deal death and destruction on a whole country and even murder its own citizens, like Dr Kelly, to massage the facts as to why we are being plunged into war, not a student in sight!

I'm afraid you can't discuss the the Coalitions response to the Libyan conflict without mentioning the New Labour warmongering. It is their madness that provides the Coalition with a cautionary tale to try and avoid, ie being labelled as "Bloodthirsty Warmongers" as has been accorded to your New Labour!

[David Johnson]

For about a year at least, when anybody posts anything remotely derogatory about the Tories you leap to their defence by using a diversionary tactic and rant on about New Labour without mentioning the Tories at all or the point of the post.

Actions speak louder than words and you are clearly a Tory Boy taking orders from your political masters, David Cameron and George Osborne in the depths of East Cheam. Your incessant vitriol poured on Labour shows that you are a Pinochet loving, Thatcher kissing, John Major hugging, Osborne stroking, Cameron massaging, NHS hating, disability allowance denying, unemployed person hating, bourgeois Tory Boy.

Case proven.

Cheers
D

[David Johnson]

"Lara and I both attended the futile anti-war march in 2000. We were two of 1,000,000 and I recall not seeing any "Students", I wonder why? Could it be because lefty rabble rousers do not incite students to protest unless a Tory government is in power? Even when a Labour government is about to deal death and destruction on a whole country and even murder its own citizens, like Dr Kelly, to massage the facts as to why we are being plunged into war, not a student in sight!

You dont even know which year the protests were in, do you ToryBoy? All sensible forumites will see through your game. Trying to make out you are some metrosexual who loves decking, when in fact you are a student hating, date abusing, Tory government arse licking, ToryBoy.

If you stop for a moment from whacking off in front of a full cover photograph of Margaret Thatcher with her legs open, you might notice, ToryBoy, that the Tories are not providing the perfect government you and your ilk make out.

Oh by the way, the Iraq war protests were in 2003. Learn your Tory Central Office script a bit better next time before you come on here.

Cheers
D

[Sam Slater]

[quote]Merely posing the question, to be fair.[/quote]

What would be the point of such a question but to undermine my point of view? Like I said, clich?d and childish.

[quote]Clearly your view is that the statement is not true. Though I suspect the statement is no more childish and cliched than one describing removing the UN as an "obstacle".[/quote]

Clearly? You sure? I never argued it wasn't, just that I got your implication and thought it childish and clich?d. See above.

[quote]A study of history can be invaluable in terms of getting a wider perspective.[/quote]

True, but you asked me 'Were you equally gungho about arming the Muhajeddin.....?' Past tense. Your comeback about studying history would only be fair if we were discussing what I feel about the Russian conflict in Afghanistan now. At the ages 3-12, though, I was totally unaware at the time that 23-32 years later I'd be asked about my thoughts on it.

[quote]Some people were killed at the end of the Ist Gulf War. Many, many more were killed as a result of the 2nd Gulf War invasion.[/quote]

Many were killed before the 1st Gulf war and between the 1st and 2nd Gulf wars. How many? It's hard to say since Saddam wasn't the kind of guy to let any independent, international bodies in to try and figure it out. My point was that we let these people down. I don't want that to happen again.

[quote]This strikes me as palpably wrong. If you read any half sensible military history you will find there is often a disconnect between those members of the officer class not in front line action and those experienced front line soldiers who have seen comrades blown to bits in terms of their "gungho attitude", irrespective of whether they are conscripts or volunteers.[/quote]

See above. I wasn't denying the facts, just that your point was mute in this case (I'm gung-ho just because I won't be the one sent to the front lines). It is this implication I think childish and clich?d. It's a conversation-killer. For me to defend my opinion on going to war I have to be involved. That's silly. I may as well comeback with the retort: "You weren't a Kurd, with a Kurdish family living in Iraq over the last 30 years so it's easy for you to say we should have left Saddam alone." Comments like that get neither of us anywhere.

Hey, you don't like Nick Clegg cuddling up to Cameron but you've never been in a position Nick Clegg has been in so it's easy for you to criticise........Lock up murderers? Your trouble is you've never bloody murdered anyone so don't be so blas? about sending them off to the nick!...... get my point? Just about any debate possible can have an infantile retort such as that. It's not arguing against a point but the easiest way to undermine someone's position..............if they fall for it.

[David Johnson]

Okay, in summary we disagree. You appear very keen on intervention. As for me, I am not so convinced.

I suspect the big difference between us is that I do not have your seemingly unshakeable belief that I am correct e.g. if the UN is an obstacle, we just remove it. That belief appears to share much with religious belief. You believe because you believe.

I suspect life is a tad more complex and messy.

Cheers
D

[andy at handiwork]

'...whacking off in front of a full cover (colour?) photograph of Margaret Thatcher with her legs open..'

There's an image that will now never leave my mind, unfortunately.

[jimslip]

You said "Actions speak louder than words and you are clearly a Tory Boy "

David Johnson the little Stalinist dictator barks again. "Denouncing" me as a "Tory Boy", why? Because I show no support for a bunch of hypocritical, corrupt, liars that he so slavishly obeys. So according to our little goose-stepping dictator, "If you're not with us, you're a Tory!" What utter bollocks you talk!

You are out of date Comrade, there was a time when a person, would have to hide the fact that he was a Tory supporter from, "Right on" little Stalinists like you. The reason? Because in the old days, the Labour party represented values that were fundamentally good and sound and the Tories represented the rich.

I'm afraid all that has changed, now it is the rabid New Labour activist like yourself, that must hang his head in shame. For it is the likes of you that plunged this country into 2 wars resulting in 10's thousands of deaths, it is the likes of you that has destroyed our civil liberties and it is the likes of you that has driven this country into near bankruptcy. All this while Blair accumulated ?20,000,000 and his colleagues thieved and cheated every penny they could get out of the system.

I can make this observation with no allegiance to any political party only as an observer.

It seems to be in your immature, childish and spiteful nature to persistently insult those that disagree with your views. I find it a great insult that you are suggesting that in the face of your pathetic, rabid, slavish and obsessional adoration, for your crooked puppet masters, I would in turn be ashamed to admit my support of an opposing political party.

You suggest that I would have to skulk in a corner, in the face of your spineless, corrupt, New Labour viewpoint, like some hapless Jew in 1930's Nazi Germany in the face of a cowardly, brutish, finger-pointing, SS officer.

I am an observer of politics and are not a drone of any political party, but if and when I do wish to support one, I will certainly not be ashamed to admit it to the likes of you!

Comrade, for God's sake watch the film "The Lives of Others" set in East Berlin you'll love it, but for all the wrong reasons!!laugh!