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I was brought up in the countryside so I know what it's like as much as you do. I used to go out hunt sabbing every weekend in those days so if your friends decide to go out hunting illegally rest assured the sabs and anti hunt lobby will be hounding your every move with mobiles in hand to contact the police - just as you used to do to us. Justice is sweet.

Come off it. They put down the dogs when they are past their working life.
Should they do the same to the foxhunters?

Mart

"They put down the dogs when they are past their working life."

Which is an average of just 7 years - unfortunately they are not suitable for pets - another casualty of Fox hunting, dogs bred as killing machines only to be put down when past their usefulness.

"The fox is virtually without natural predators in Britain, other than man. The natural death of such a wild animal will occur by starvation, disease or injury, none of which can be considered humane."

Foxes are without natural predators almost everywhere. They never had significant predators in the UK. Go on - what hunts Foxes in any significant numbers? Wolves? Bears? Tigers? lol

Fox populations in the wild are under natural circumstances kept in balance in the same way as those of other predators such as stoats or weasels - if there's enough to eat they breed and multiply, if theres not they don't breed or some pups or even adults starve - yes nature is cruel too. Look at natural populations of foxes where there is no hunting - arctic foxes for example - they have virtually no natural predators (oh I suppose the odd polar bear in some places but it's negligable) - they don't have excessive population explosions - predator and prey tend to remain in a dynamic balance see.

Now where's the exception that proves the rule? Oh yes - New Zealand. There foxes are not naturally in balance with nature as they didn't evolve in relationship to their prey - they were introduced by man. Why were they introduced one might ask? For hunting. So much for the arguement hunting as about maintaining the balance of nature - its about sport and the pleasure of hunting down an animal, pure and simple. They introduced foxes into places where there had never been foxes just to hunt them - and now they have wiped out many rare species and are out of control. It was never mainly about population control - there are many countries where there are no hunts and they use shooting, trapping , poisoning etc (and they don't hunt badgers here but they use those methods to control them) - I agree all messy methods too - but the fact is that even in the UK fox hunting does not have a big enough impact on fox numbers anyway - its always been supplemented by shooting etc (as evidenced by that recent tragic case of the boy getting shot mistaken for a fox on a typical evening out shooting foxes). Why is this? Well the problem is the "balance of nature" is being undermined not by foxes but by us - where fox populations in the UK and continent are not held in check by numbers of prey species is mainly in situations where prey species are almost irrelevent because foxes are starting to scavenge in urban areas (and yes hunt the odd chicken if security is poor) - but that is an artificial situation created by our own wastefulness and expansion of urban areas into the countryside. It's inevitable that species like the fox will have to adapt or die out and as a great opportunist (in the ecological, not pejorative, sense) foxes are an adaptable species.

Thanks for that one. A lot of species were brought ito NZ to the detriment of the native species.
The arrival of the Maoris spelt the death knell for the Moas.

Mart

Yes we should all thank the hunting fraternity for all the harm they have done to our environment. Nature? - they wouldn't know it if it was staring them in the face.

This was one of the election promises Labour were voted in on, the reason it has taken so long and ending up being forced through as it has is down to the pro hunting mob in the House of Lords.
The wishes of the electorate being denied by the unelected Lords is a much worse attack on democracy

What has happened about reforming the House of Lords? The last I heard was that from becoming an aweful undemocratic system it would be a Tone selected undemocratic one.

Mart

a) I don't say I agree with the rationale about killing the dogs, I quote it as a reported example to set the context of how this is both complex and emotive. There are examples on both sides.

b) There are many things that are in party manifestos, it does not mean that a government has carte blanche to say the people agree with everything they have ever written down. There has been no referendum. I know I haven't voted on this single issue.

c) The Lords has been significantly reformed over recent years, and is not contrary to popular opinion dominated by Conservatives - in fact Labour has more peers and the House of Lords has roughly only 15% hereditary peers.

By its nature the Upper House is supposed to be conservative (small c), and act as a constitutional way to help keep in check overly dominant governments and to prevent the law from being skewed by short term popular fads. Today the context is Tony Blair and Labour, not so long ago the same could be said for Thatcher and the Conservatives.

If you want to see screwed up democracy at it's best take a look at the US, where Senators and Congressmen where it is about money & power, and little is about substance and doing the right thing.

Oh well thats it then.

If the hunt sabs are going to be out then I best stay at home. I don't want to upset their fluffy bunny feelings do I. And what would my mother say if she found out i'd been arrested?...........Oh the shame.

Seriously, if you think that for one second sabs, ministers or anyone else is going to stop us hunting then you are more deluded than I thought. We've bashed you before and we'll bash you again, my only regret is that the anti I tried to run over on boxing day was fitter than I thought and managed to jump out of the way.

EJ