sorry for the brevity of the follwing replies but i hope i've addressed all the concerns raised thus far, even if the answers/explanations given are not to everyone's (anyone's?) satisfaction.
to state the fairly obvious, our intention is not to alienate or drive away any forumite. why would it be? our sole motivation is to continue to develop bgafd, given the limited resources at our disposal, and make it a user friendly experience for everyone who visits.
please excuse any copy/paste/typo cock-ups and overly repetitious answers - it's been a bit frantic. :-\
=======================
mart wrote:
> Whilst understanding the possible need for an "Industry" forum,
> have you considered the effect of resrticting membership.
> The recent debates etc. about HIV/Aids and testing had some
> very informed input from at least one punter. If this or
> similar topics are posted on your proposed new forum such
> expert advice will not be available.
there's no reason why such debates could not continue to take place on the main forum. but is seems reasonable enought to provide a space where those directly affected by, for instance, hiv should not be able to do so without comments from people who are not.
=======================
David Johnson wrote:
> For instance, Person A posts on the Fans Forum a request
> "Anyone got some pics or a link to Actress XYZ. Person B posts
> on the same Forum a link to a membership website with pics of
> Actress XYZ. Is that promotion or not? Promotion/marketing has
> obviously many different approaches from the "Great new website
> - only $20 dollars a month to the more subtle "have you seen
> these great pics of blah, blah" Surely, this is going to be
> very difficult to enforce.
as in life, there is bound to be an element of fuzziness when enforcing these things. that's where the judgement of the moderators comes in; if it's thought that someone is being opportunistic with their responses (taking the piss, frankly), we will have a word in their shell-like and expect them to take it on board - or else, suffer the consequences.
> With regard to the Industry forum, I see limited benefit in
> having a separate forum and think it will foster an
> introverted, insiders type mentality. A number of issues
> affecting the adult industry are general, not purely related to
> this industry e.g. legal, medical, financial. People who may
> be relatively infrequent posters to this forum, but who have
> very useful knowledge/expertise in such areas may be put off
> posting because they don't want to go through the rigmarole of
> getting seconded etc. This potentially could reduce the overall
> effectiveness of the forum
you may see detect only a limited benefit but that may not be the case for those who would actually use it. as indicated in the notice, this is not a done deal but if enough interest is expressed then it will be set up. the matters of general interest you refer to will still be valid topics on the main forum and those with expert opinions but who are not in the industry will still be able to make their voice heard. i can't see producers/webmasters keeping schtum just because the 'Industry' forum is in place, especially if they don't like the way a discussion is going. the 'effectiveness' issue will only be resolved once it is up and running. the nominations procedure is to ensure the forums integrity as a venue for the industry - i.e. everyone will be 100% confident as to who it is they are talking to - something that is not always the case on the main forum (although, we do our best to make it so).
=======================
Lizard wrote:
> Why not split the forum into BGAFD forum Industry, and BGAFD
> forum fans,
> the first being a place where talent, producers, promoters, can
> spam thier arses off, and the second, a place where fans can
> make Intelligent thought provoking posts, like " Moths" and
> such like!
that's what we're attempting to a degree with the new arrangement.
> In my humble opinion, there were some really interesting
> topics/debates etc re the original subject matter, when there
> was just one forum, sometimes things got a little crazy, but
> everybody seemed to mix well!, what seems to have happened,
> nearly every topic on the o/t forum has nothing to do with
> British Girls anymore, and every topic on the BG forum, has
> become an advertisment for someones venture, so why not revert
> to just one forum, and just change the rules of posting, ie
> using the o/t before making some comments not pertanent to the
> subject, but still allowing some lee-way for humour, as long as
> the subject is about British Girls etc, and not just anything,
> I will be the first to admit to some rather 'obscure' postings,
> but this is mainly because, I cant have a decent conversation
> with anyone anymore on the main forum, and still have a laugh,
> like we all used to!
regarding o/t posts on the bg forum, this has always been the case: see
as hinted at elsewhere, chucking everything into the same pot is a recipe for confusion and ergo more moderating not less which is what is needed. creating forums each of which serve a specific need ofers greater clarity to the user and is altogether a more manageable way of doing things. after all, there are only so many minutes in the day, not to mention nerve-endings in the body...
=======================
SimonD wrote:
> Again I can see the reasons behind the change, but by doing
> this it would loose that good blend of punter, producer actor
> and actress mix and could end up becoming more them and us
> style, which to me would make BGAFD less special.
the interaction will still be there but in a more coherent way. models, and producers can still help out fans on the main forum with their enquiries and join in debates, etc. punters can still query/praise/slag off producers on the 'Promotions' forums regarding their latest offerings. all we want to do is offer both the industry and punter alike spaces wherer their needs are first and foremost.
> Also as David says there is a big grey area of when a punter
> asks for pics and info, at the moment we reply with links or
> pics and info, is that spam? maybe? but it's requested spam.
not if it's done in a meaningful way - i.e. genuinely informative to the person requesting help. at the moment many spam-like posts are initiated by webmasters/producers. this would no longer be the case with the 'Promotions' forum in place.
> Maybe a test period is required to see how it pans out?
if it works, it works. if it doesn't we'll have a rethink. if the o/t forum hadn't taken off we would have nixed it.
=======================
Number1 wrote:
> I think David is correct in his comments about "Anyone got some
> pics or a link to Actress XYZ....etc" especially when the
> person requesting is a first time poster with a hotmail
> address. I don't think any of us are fooled by those posts.
correct, which is why they will be dealt with summarily.
> Secondly I would in theory be in favour of an industry only
> section, and would join if this was introduced, BUT I believe
> the thing that fills the forum is often the industry outsider's
> input or questions. People within the industry speak to each
> other easily enough not to need a specific forum to do it in.
the main forum will still be a venue where insiders and outsiders can interface to their hearts content. nothing will have changed, in that respect. regarding the last sentence, if that is the case then there will be insufficient interest expressed to make it a going concern and we won't set it up. it's always possible that many insiders will react to the idea by thinking "why should we use a place run by a bunch of 'outsiders' who we don't know". again, if that is the case, then it simply won't happen. bgafd will abide.
> And lastly, anything that complicates a forum seals it's doom.
> There's nothing worse than approaching someone's message board
> only to find there are different sections for phototgrapher
> seeking models, models seeking photographers, photographers
> talking to other photographers, and so on and so on, turns
> reading anything into a tediously drawn out proceedure.
definitely, there is a balance to be struck when considering these things. how many times has a potentially good idea for a site been unneccesarily diluted from the outset by having more forums than members? i don't think what we are proposing runs that risk. having said that, we are not too proud to admit having got things wrong and if that is the case we will simply revert to the current scenario while licking our wounds. in our defence, unlike many sites we try to respond to demands and pressures not create them where none exist.
> I think the way a forum is used tends to be the way it should
> stay, unless that becomes unacceptibly against the general
> ethos. I don't really believe that segregating it up into more
> sections will bring in more users to any particular section
your opinion has been noted, along with everyone else's.
=======================
NeilUK wrote:
> One of the great things about this forum for me is that it puts
> the punters in touch with the people in the industry. An
> industry alone forum could stop this, there is nothing better
> than asking a question about a model or producer and seeing a
> reply from the person in question.
that will still happen. models/producers will not shun the forum where the people upon whome their livelihoods are dependent hang out. some of them actually LIKE chewing the cud with the common folk!!
> I have had some very useful advice and help from people in this
> forum and am worried this would be stopped as I certainly
> wouldn't get access to an industry alone forum. I also thought
> of the problem that was pointed out by David J, if someone asks
> where he/she can see pics of a model and I or other people with
> websites post a link purely to help out will the post be
> blocked as promotion ?
no. see my answer to his post.
> Also what about a new model who wants to ask if anyone is
> willing or interested in hiring her/him. If all the people in
> the business have their own forum will they necessarily even
> see the question? Isn't it more likely her post will be missed
> by the very people it is intended for. If this forum isn't
> about helping new models then it really is missing something.
posts relating to hiring models can be made on the 'Promotions' forum, as you can see in the user description in my oringal post.
=======================
Riley wrote:
> There are far more readers than posters on this forum and the
> balance of information posts can't be that bad as the amount of
> posters complaints are very limited unless complaints are being
> made off the board to the moderators about Spam /
> Announcements.
our concerns are as expressed in the original notice. our intention is not to short change anyone. we expect the majority of those who visit the main forum to visit the 'Promotions' forum and vice versa. the designated function of the 'Promotions' forum will make things easier from a webmasters point of view when it comes to making the great british punter aware of what he has to offer.
> The facility to put links into signatures, post promotional
> pics which in a lot of cases lead to useful discussion has been
> on the forum for a long time and all because some make more use
> of this than others the facility is there for all to use and
> the moderators to bend ears if abused either on or off the
> board to the abuser.
we are looking to limit the signatures of members to a single url, which must be accompanied by a clear description of the members connection to it (webmaster, featured model, fan, etc). addtional urls can be added to the members profile page.
> Another useful issue in allowing announcements / Spam whatever
> you wish to call it also brings to the forum the credibility of
> the poster, regular posters are less likely to put themselves
> up to be flamed and see their product albeit web site / DVD's /
> photo services / models etc ripped to bits by the critics /
> posters who do make the effort.
which is exactly what the 'Promotions' forum will allow you to do. no change there.
> A traders forum will become a mass dumping ground of fly
> posters who give very little back to the forum or in the
> promotion of the British Industry. The pirate industry will
> like that facillity especially which is detrimental to both UK
> legit producers/suppliers and the buying public.
>
> Personally I like the balance of this forum and the degree of
> fairness of the moderators so why make more work for
> yourselves. Plus many of us send traffic to the forum from our
> site links which we place as requested to be listed on the
> forum and are pleased to do this but not sure if I would be
> happy to send traffic to a free for all traders section.
traders forum? what traders forum? the 'Promotions' forum is for the legitimate industry, the same as this one is. We're happy to add a "No pirates" element to the user description if it helps to make our position clear. the situation that we currently have regarding traders is the one that we will have after the changes. if we think someone is trading in bootleg material we will remove their post and delete their membership. a surge in posts by pirates could only happen if we allowed it to and we won't. and don't forget - all posters require membership (something else that wasn't greeted with universal rapture when we first went public with the idea and which has been crucial in keeping the bgafd juggernaut on the rails). there is, and will be, no free-for-all.
=======================
eduardo wrote:
> I agree with the posts here and I am totally against an
> Industry Forum.
>
> I am just a common punter and not an industry insider but I
> like to view the threads to see what is going on in the
> industry new films, girls etc.
i don't doubt for a moment that those threads will still take place on the main forum.
> I will probably leave this forum alone if it splits anymore.
i'm sorry you feel that way but it might be worth seeing how it works in practice before moving to pastures new.
> It's a great forum as it is and should be left alone.
thank you for the compliment - always welcome.
=======================
golostruda wrote:
> Can't we just have one forum for Tomsk and one forum for
> everyone else?
ah, the steve56 solution...
=======================
paul jones (male performer) wrote:
> I think that one of the nice things about this forum is that
> there is a mix of models looking for work, producers seeking
> models etc, in with the rest.
>
> Keep it as it is, but maybe just ask that posts of that nature
> be marked "Work Wanted" or "Work Offered", and those about new
> adult sites and stuff be called "Announce".
>
> The pros here would pretty much catch on.
>
> Cheers
there will still that mix going on but in a more rational context. producers/models will still be posting on the main forum and punters on the 'Promotions' forum. to be honest, the idea of pulling people up for making a post without the correct subject header is a bit of a nightmare. it's proven impossible to get people to use 'O/T' when making posts the main forum that are not strictly relevant to the main forum. this would multiply that scenario several fold. it's much easier from a moderating point of view (i.e more efficient time-wise) to provide appropriate venues for certain types of posts. people understand such an arrangement more readily.
=======================
Bob Singleton wrote:
> Maybe a change to a WebWiz style forum (such as the one used
> for the MyPole members...
>
http://www.mypole.co.uk/forums/default.asp )
>
> That way there could be different subject headings, such as
> Industry, Fans and O/T whilst being accessible to all, and
> probably easier to moderate than 2,3 or 4 seperate forums.
thanx for the suggestion. there are a gazillion increasingly nifty forums out there and all have their pros and cons. although it has it's limitations, the thing we like about the current software is the threaded view option which seems a more naturalistic way of allowing topics to develop than the enforced 'flat view' (to many people ignore the quote button) which the majority of forums now use. at least, that's our opinion for now...
=======================
mobo wrote:
> As a punter, i like the way it is, im sure most people realise
> when something is being promoted but i dont think it is
> excessive. For non industry people its nice to see posts from
> the industry, i like the overall balance and as regard to new
> posters not wanting to post, ive rarely seen a nasty reply to
> any of the posts on here. The way it is at the moment you read
> and maybe post replies to the things of interest. I think it
> would be wrong to dilute it down. Most punters are interested
> to see what Alicia,Faye or Sandie etc have to say! Not that
> interested in the males but there you go! Joking aside i think
> the balance works.
there seems to be a general impression that the new arrangement will somehow restrict or prevent certain types of posts/threads that currently happen, from happening any longer. if this is the impression that the forum notice has given, it was not intended do so. alicia, faye, sandie et al can continue posting their little cotton socks off on the main forum after the rejig. it's just that they will also be able to use the 'Promotions' forum to tout their websites without having to wait for a fan to ask about it on the forum and they can also drop into the 'Industry' forum for matters more singularly to their, er, industry activies - if it goes ahead, that is.
=======================
Paul Tavener wrote:
> I would suggest just a single forum rather than multiple
> forums. Perhaps a mandatory subject heading should be added
> (selected from a limited list of options). That way everyone
> would get more information about a post before having to open
> it and could simply avoid posts on certain subjects if they
> chose to.
not a facility available to us within the current software but thanx for the suggestion. there are already two forums and we have no intention of re-amalgamating them.
=======================
marcusallen wrote:
> It has never quite been the same since the splitting into two,
> but no harm done. However, I feel that further fragmentation
> would harm rather than help. There is no way in hell that
> everyone will be satisfied, so be it.
i can't disagree with that.
> I agree with most of the posts above and as for "spamming" or
> advertising, it does not bother me at all. Any post that does
> not hold or excite my interest is ignored anyway.
>
> Truly, the mods have a difficult job, so why make it worse -
> especially since there is little if anything to gain.
if we thought it would only make things worse we wouldn't be changing anything.
> That a topic is open to all, I consider to be a very good thing
> and input comes from all quarters.
and that ethos will still apply on the 'open' forums.
=======================
Jon NS wrote:
> I don't think splitting the forum further will bring benefits.
> In fact, I think it may be a bad thing for what is a great
> resource for fans, customers and industry.
>
> The industry forum would only serve to enhance the perception
> of the industry as a 'clique'. As a previous poster suggests -
> the industry should organise its own forum if it feels it needs
> one.
why should organising it's own forum make a difference? the fact is the existing main forum will still be a venue in which visitors from all avenues of life, insiders and outsiders can mix - as is the case now. it would make no kind of sense, commercially or socially, for the industry to ignore it out of 'clique-ness'. if there is a demand for a 'Industry' forum and we choose not to meet it, the fact that one is then set up elsewhere is neither here nore there, surely? the effect will be the same. if it turns out that there is no real need for such a thing, then we won't aste our time setting one up and neither will anyone else.
> I do not think that the Promotion forum would be useful either.
> I assume the majority of forumites read the main forum - so
> those of us that do promote would always be trying to find ways
> to put our wares infront of the greatest audience. Moderation
> would be made more difficult, not easier.
it's a possibility but unless you take a bite there's no way of knowing what the pudding tastes like.
> My suggestion would be to have one thread a day devoted to
> promotion on the main forum. This would suit the 'spammers' who
> would still be in the middle of the greatest traffic, but also
> be a better solution for those who get fed up with spam. You
> could have different promotion themes on different days.
in effect, a mini-forum situated in the existing forum. far easier to have a dedicated venue, imo. limiting certain types of posts to a paricular thread is unlikely to prevent the sort of sneaky-spam that concerns you.
> Another idea might be to run a British tgp alongside the forum.
> Perhaps even earning a commission for the BGAFD to benefit from
> its traffic.
thank you for the suggestion.
> Ok, I'm off to spam the forum with a new thread 'Is this porn?'
> just in case the changes go through !
good luck!
=======================
mutanthalibut wrote:
> I haven't read all of the above thread, just a few of the
> posts.
>
> I myself haven't got any prob's with the current format and I
> feel that the more forums the more you split the community. On
> the other hand a promotions forum does sound like a good idea.
> The industry forum does come across as a 'them and us'. IMHO
> not good.
that certainly isn't the intention. those inside the industry and those outside will still be able to exchange opinions as freely as they do now on the main forum. nothing will have changed in that respect. i don't why an 'Industry' forum need engender paranoia, unless it's thought that dastardly plots will be cooked up therein, to fleece the hapless punter even more naked than he is now.
> From somebody who runs his own Ltd company employing 20+
> staff.
if you have any under-employed staff lolling around, you're welcome to send them over for a work-out. anyone with diplomatic skills, especially appreciated.
=======================
Illinoisblue wrote:
> I think the two forums work perfectly well as they are.
that's what people said when there was only one forum and the proposal for an o/t messageboard was greeted like a bag of cold sick!
> If producers want to promote/spam/advertise their wares then so
> be it - does anyone click on the links to, say, Tomsk's sites
> anyway?
you may feel okay with it but we don't. give 'em an inch... just how liberal should we be in allowing self-promotion? i'm sure if we let it rip there would soon be howls of indignation at the way the place is going down the drain. the 'British Girls' forum is primarily for the fans and that's how we want to keep it.
> The O/T is great for a bit of banter about pretty much
> anything, the other side is good fun, if only to see who's
> bitching about who.
don't worry - the bitching will continue...
=======================
MisterC wrote:
> I agree with where you're coming from entirely, both the mods
> and Bob. It's actually very difficult to get the balance right
> between facilitating the exchange of information and allowing
> spam.
so it would seem... :-S
> I'd actually go for a more rigorous moderation policy and
> ultimately ban those who post blatent spam and unsolicitated
> advertising. Commercial links do come up in legitimate threads
> and some times newsworthy events are linked to pay sites, but
> anything that has spamming as it's intent should be zapped on
> sight.
sounds great but much like beauty, spam is also in the eye of the beholder, to a degree: one person's helpful link is another person's opportunistic gobbet of self-promotion.
> An additional thing may be to limit the length of signatures to
> 1 short line - it appears to me that some people post gibberish
> just to air the multiple links in their signature.
funny you should say that... we will be introducing new restrictions on the use of signatures, limiting them to a single url each which must also be accompanied by an explanation of a members relationship with any link.
=======================
George wrote:
> Apartheid by another name. The industry forum will soon die
> because:
>
> A there won't be enough people posting to it anyway, and
> B the industry wallahs love lording it over the fans, and will
> quickly decamp to the hoi polloi board where they can continue
> to bask in the adulation of the masses, and cast their pearls
> before the swine.
>
> BGAFD is suffering from being too successful, and sadly its
> popularity will be its ruin, like Venice and Stonehenge. There
> ain't no cure, and there's an end to it.
well, it's an opinion, i suppose...
> But well done, chaps, for creating something that has given
> great pleasure to many.
glad to have been of service. we can only apologise for having blown it for everyone.
