Essex Lad wrote:
>
> But there is a heck of a difference between "engineering a
> coup" and actually killing a foreign leader.
Is there? Did Allende survive the coup in Chile (you don't seriously think the CIA weren't involved do you?)
> If the CIA were that efficient why are they not murdering all
> the left-wing dictators/elected politicians they disagree with?
In the JFK case I think we are primarily looking at the CIA's Western Hemisphere Division, and in the 60s and 70s they were working pretty hard to keep the various fascist regimes in the Americas in power. There weren't that many elected politicians in South America back then.
As to the plot to kill Castro, do you not think that killing a communist leader in a police state might just have been a bit more difficult than killing the US president who was riding in an open topped car protected by just a few Secret Service men? Charles de Gaulle survived numerous assassination attempts and he thought JFK's security was very poor.
Conspiracy Theories
Re: Conspiracy Theories
If Oswald's mother said he had saved $1500, I assume that is because that's what he told her, just as he told the journalist the same story. Where did he keep this money whilst he was in the Marines, in a sock? The only money he is known to have had is the $203 in his bank account.
There were several cases of young ex-servicemen "defecting" to the USSR and then returning to the USA at that time. The USSR was a closed society, and these "defections" would have served to fill in some gaps in knowledge rather than provide hard intelligence. Robert Webster is one ex-Navy man who "defected" from a trade fair in Moscow, and then returned to the USA.
You may be aware that Otto Otepka, a security official at the State Department, was trying to look into the issue of false defectors in 1963 when his study was abruptly closed down. Is that because there weren't any false defectors, or because there were?
As for Osawld, the so-called defector, who had threatened to give the Soviets all he knew from his time as a radar operator, was never court-martialled, or even debriefed by the Navy when he returned to the USA. Instead, he was taken under the wing of anti-Soviet Russian emigres such as George de Mohrenshildt in Dallas. For a defector who had said he would give the Russians US military secrets, Oswald had a very easy time from the authorities when he got back to the USA.
There were several cases of young ex-servicemen "defecting" to the USSR and then returning to the USA at that time. The USSR was a closed society, and these "defections" would have served to fill in some gaps in knowledge rather than provide hard intelligence. Robert Webster is one ex-Navy man who "defected" from a trade fair in Moscow, and then returned to the USA.
You may be aware that Otto Otepka, a security official at the State Department, was trying to look into the issue of false defectors in 1963 when his study was abruptly closed down. Is that because there weren't any false defectors, or because there were?
As for Osawld, the so-called defector, who had threatened to give the Soviets all he knew from his time as a radar operator, was never court-martialled, or even debriefed by the Navy when he returned to the USA. Instead, he was taken under the wing of anti-Soviet Russian emigres such as George de Mohrenshildt in Dallas. For a defector who had said he would give the Russians US military secrets, Oswald had a very easy time from the authorities when he got back to the USA.
Re: Robches
Robches wrote:
>
> As to the plot to kill Castro, do you not think that killing a
> communist leader in a police state might just have been a bit
> more difficult than killing the US president who was riding in
> an open topped car protected by just a few Secret Service men?
> Charles de Gaulle survived numerous assassination attempts and
> he thought JFK's security was very poor.
>
With all the resources at their disposal, no. Che Guevara acc to some sources was a CIA stooge - he could easily have aided in the assassination of Castro.
>
> As to the plot to kill Castro, do you not think that killing a
> communist leader in a police state might just have been a bit
> more difficult than killing the US president who was riding in
> an open topped car protected by just a few Secret Service men?
> Charles de Gaulle survived numerous assassination attempts and
> he thought JFK's security was very poor.
>
With all the resources at their disposal, no. Che Guevara acc to some sources was a CIA stooge - he could easily have aided in the assassination of Castro.
Re: Robches
Essex Lad wrote:
> Robches wrote:
>
> >
> > As to the plot to kill Castro, do you not think that killing
> a
> > communist leader in a police state might just have been a bit
> > more difficult than killing the US president who was riding
> in
> > an open topped car protected by just a few Secret Service
> men?
> > Charles de Gaulle survived numerous assassination attempts
> and
> > he thought JFK's security was very poor.
> >
> With all the resources at their disposal, no. Che Guevara acc
> to some sources was a CIA stooge - he could easily have aided
> in the assassination of Castro.
I don't know what these sources are, Che was a hardline communist, if anything he was too extreme even for Castro, who was happy for him to go to Africa and South America to forment revolution and eventually get killed. But think about it, Castro was running a communist police state, JFK was riding around in an open car. Who's the soft target?
> Robches wrote:
>
> >
> > As to the plot to kill Castro, do you not think that killing
> a
> > communist leader in a police state might just have been a bit
> > more difficult than killing the US president who was riding
> in
> > an open topped car protected by just a few Secret Service
> men?
> > Charles de Gaulle survived numerous assassination attempts
> and
> > he thought JFK's security was very poor.
> >
> With all the resources at their disposal, no. Che Guevara acc
> to some sources was a CIA stooge - he could easily have aided
> in the assassination of Castro.
I don't know what these sources are, Che was a hardline communist, if anything he was too extreme even for Castro, who was happy for him to go to Africa and South America to forment revolution and eventually get killed. But think about it, Castro was running a communist police state, JFK was riding around in an open car. Who's the soft target?
Re: Robches
Yes JFK was in an open car but as I pointed out some time before his route was not announced publicly until 19 November so the "conspiracists" could have no way of knowing that he would drive down Dealey Plaza unless you believe that Oswald (or whoever) was going to follow him wherever he went in Dallas to shoot him. It is simply not feasible that there was a conspiracy for that reason alone. No one in the world knew the route until 18 November so how could a plot be hatched and JFK despatched in that short time?
Forget everything else - just find a response to that one question: how was a plot organised and commissioned in just three days?
Forget everything else - just find a response to that one question: how was a plot organised and commissioned in just three days?
Re: Conspiracy Theories
No-one in the world knew the route? What about the Secret Service, not to mention the Dallas Police? Do you really think the CIA could not have found it out?
The plot was not organised in three days. If the Chicago plot had worked, you would never have heard of Lee Harvey Oswald, and Chicago would have been the place JFK died. As it was, his trip there was cancelled at very short notice, it was just too risky for him to go. Have a read about it at www.the chicagoplot.com, which strikes me as a very well researched piece of writing, and see what you think.
The plot was not organised in three days. If the Chicago plot had worked, you would never have heard of Lee Harvey Oswald, and Chicago would have been the place JFK died. As it was, his trip there was cancelled at very short notice, it was just too risky for him to go. Have a read about it at www.the chicagoplot.com, which strikes me as a very well researched piece of writing, and see what you think.
Route
The route was not finalised until 18 November and published in the Dallas Morning News on 19 November. So it would have been impossible to have known the motorcade would pass by the TSBD until a maximum of four days before the event.
Btw, I'm thoroughly enjoying this debate with you.
Btw, I'm thoroughly enjoying this debate with you.
Re: Conspiracy Theories
Essex Lad,
It's nice to have a decent conversation I agree.
The route was always going to go through Dealey Plaza, as far as I am aware, what happened at the last minute was that it was changed to go down Elm St, directly in front of the School Book Depository. This forced the car to take such a sharp turn that it almost had to stop, in direct defiance of standard practice, the rule being that the car should always travel at a minimum of 11 mph.
As I said, the CIA would easily have been able to know which route the car would take, and may even have been able to influence the change of route. But if it had not been Dallas, it would have been somewhere else, just as it looks as if there were plots in Miami and Chicago beforehand. President Kennedy was on borrowed time.
It's nice to have a decent conversation I agree.
The route was always going to go through Dealey Plaza, as far as I am aware, what happened at the last minute was that it was changed to go down Elm St, directly in front of the School Book Depository. This forced the car to take such a sharp turn that it almost had to stop, in direct defiance of standard practice, the rule being that the car should always travel at a minimum of 11 mph.
As I said, the CIA would easily have been able to know which route the car would take, and may even have been able to influence the change of route. But if it had not been Dallas, it would have been somewhere else, just as it looks as if there were plots in Miami and Chicago beforehand. President Kennedy was on borrowed time.
Re: Conspiracy Theories
Have you seen read this book ?
Re: Conspiracy Theories
No, but I have heard of it. Jim and Lisa are pretty well known as good researchers, it would be well worth a read.