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"If you had actually watched one of the links I cited your polemical post about non-genuine Jews as you put it, the holocaust and the need as you see it to issue me a rebuke would have been answered."

I watched the first link so you are wrong in that.

"Polemical post"? I do not think so. I merely question some of your comments.

"Rebuke". Not a rebuke at all. I merely question the implications of some your statements e.g. "genuine" Jews.

"Sorry David you didn't understand my post, you got it completely the wrong way round because you don't know what religious Jews actually believe."

How could I get it wrong having looked at one of your links? The link I looked at shows what ONE religious Jew "actually believes".

Secondly when you state "I don't know what religious Jews actually believe" do you think that three links are the definitive answer that must be correct about what religious Jews think?

You could show me three links from "religious" Islamists all defending the slaughter of non-believers. Would that make their views "definitive"?

"My hat is off to them for condemning the violence of the state of Israel and for calling for its peaceful dis-establishment. The cycle of violence can be ended that way."

I agree.

However, you think that statement about the cycle of violence can be ended in that way, is true for Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, sub-Saharan Africa and Northern Nigeria?

David Johnson wrote:


> "My hat is off to them for condemning the violence of the state
> of Israel and for calling for its peaceful dis-establishment.
> The cycle of violence can be ended that way."
>
> I agree.
>


David, are you saying that you would like to see the end/abolition/disestablishment/whatever you want to call it of Israel as an independent country?

Why the Jews assume that a piece of land that wasn't theirs now is baffles me. Personally I think they were conned. If it was me I'd take a few sqaure miles of Tuscany, The Dordogne or The Amalfi Coast.

Well I am applauding a group of religious Jews condemning the violence of Israel e.g. the recent over the top onslaught against Gaza.

I also applaud the fact that they clearly recognise that the creation of the state of Israel resulted in over 500,000 Arabs losing their land and homes and has been the source of war, instability and a cycle of violence in the Middle East ever since.

I agree with their argument that a redefining of the state of Israel and the creation and acceptance of a Palestinian state would help peace considerably.

So in terms of the "disetablishment of the state of Israel" I agree with that in terms of redefining its current form. Ending the state of Israel is not going to happen.

Religious Jews who actually follow scripture will tell you that formation of a Jewish state is contrary to what they were clearly told to do in prophecy, which is why they never did it despite the diaspora and all the persecutions they have been subjected to.

The people who set up the state of Israel via a huge amount of violence were not religious, they hated the religion and set up a state which is nationalistic, intolerant of people they see as non-Jews.

The media fails to differentiate between Zionists and Jews and the failure to educate adds to the tragedy of all Jews because it makes them even more of a target when those who actually follow the religion properly want to see the end of the state of Israel for the sake of peace. I didn't say it, Jews said it.

They have been thrown out of their homeland at least twice before as punishment. Israel is founded on nationalism, violence and exclusion. Any religious person or even somebody with common sense can see it is built on sand and things held together with violence never last. Henry Kissinger has given it ten years and with respect he knows more about geo-politics than we do.

http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/content ... 6913.shtml

Religious Jews never cited the holocaust as a reason why they should have a homeland. They see this as dis-respectful towards those who were murdered and they view the holocaust as God's will.

[quote]Real Jews are actually deeply opposed to the very existence of Israel.[/quote]

What's a 'real Jew'?

Did they make you wear a Dunce cap in class much Mr Slater.....? Just wondered.

Well there is no denying that there exists a lot of tension between religious Jews whose emphasis is on cultural identities and religious practice and Zionist Jews for whom national self-determination is the key thing.

However I am not convinced that the split between the two is so complete to become an eitheror. I suspect views can cross the boundary between religious and Zionist.

You being the erudite correspondent that you are, David, I thought at first '.. an eitheror...' might be some obscure Hebrew word for a Jewish schism. Took me a while.

Yeeesss. Forgot to stick a / in between the two words. Actually an eitheror is a small reptile recently discovered in the Amazon jungle that can never make a decision about anything.