egafd.com

Gutsy lady who never resorted to the usual hypocrisy of British tarts. As she
once said, "Of course, I was game ! But I was never on the game, that's
different." RIP.

Here, here.

I liked this bit in that first link I posted

"at a time when she had sex (because she liked it) with Emile Savundra, who had paid for her acting lessons."

Why not? Good luck to her and RIP.

From what you've both said it sounds like the Minister For War was junior to the position of the current Defence Secretary, I conceive you both may be right on that one. Regarding whether what Keeler said (I am now spelling her name correctly) in the late-1980's about how Ward was spying for the Russians, it may well have been true - then again it may not. We can only take the word of what someone involved in it all says. If she was still harbouring anger towards Ward over 20 years after he died then maybe it isn't true and she was just trying to blacken his name.

According the film 'Scandal', which I've seen a number of times, M15 were having discussions with Stephen Ward - trying to get info from him about what was happening. They wouldn't be doing that surely unless they thought the chain of people, which had the Minister For War at one end and a Russian Naval Attache at the other end, might involve some risk to Britain's national security. According to the film, M15 abandoned Ward later on and this probably contributed to the decision he made to kill himself.

Regarding the 'two bimbos being pimped by Ward', it should be obvious who I was talking about: one had the first name 'Christine' and the other had the first name 'Mandy'.

Mandy Rice-Davies and, possibly Christine Keeler, were also seeing other people like the odious slum landlord Peter Rackman, who although long dead is still notorious today, having owned large parts of Paddington and Notting Hill in the 1960's.

Regarding the issue of there possibly being a lot more to all of this, the chain of people involved: Profumo, Keeler, Rice-Davies, Ward and (I've just searched his name online) Yevgeny Ivanov, the Russian Naval Attache. As I said just now, M15 wouldn't have been talking to Ward unless there was a possible risk to national security - so was John Profumo a turncoat working for Russian intelligence? Who knows. There have been cases of other people deep in the heart of the British establishment who were revealed to be Russian spies years later.

On the issue of low-moralled politicians, this has been going on since the year dot and always will go on. They hardly ever see their wives as they work 17 hour days, their families live in their constituency home many miles away, and if they're lucky they see them at weekends. A lot of ministers are in London at weekends aswell, either at their department or doing TV interviews, and therefore almost NEVER see their wives. This is why so many end up humping their secretaries, or call-girls back at their London flat when they eventually get there after a very long day at the office.

John Major's government were all at it in the 1990's as has been said, they paid a very high price for it at the 1997 election though. The hypocrisy - their actual behaviour set against the backdrop of the 'back to basics' morality drive which they launched, the corruption ('sleaze' as the press called it,) and also their seeming uncaringness and incompetence led them to their worst election defeat ever.

"According the film 'Scandal'"

Don't believe anything you see in films.

Unless you think John Wayne won WW2 all on his own that is!

"This is why so many end up humping their secretaries or call-girls back at their London flat when they eventually get there after a very long day at the office."

I don't care who they hump. Good luck to them.

Just don't be a hypocrite and think you can lecture me on moral values or impose laws that say what I can or cannot do in the privacy of my own home. That is all I ask.

Some accounts of real life events may be accurate, some may not, but what are we supposed to believe about anything unless we believe the accounts of it that exist? EVERYTHING could be bullshit for all we know. I just looked up online what the film 'Scandal' was based on and it was apparently based on a book by someone called Anthony Summers called 'Honeytrap'. Are we not to believe anything?

You're still not quite getting it. You need to do a lot more reading on the subject because you're misinformed in many areas.

max_tranmere wrote:

> From what you've both said it sounds like the Minister For War
> was junior to the position of the current Defence Secretary, I
> conceive you both may be right on that one.

We are. Profumo was a junior minister.

Regarding whether
> what Keeler said (I am now spelling her name correctly) in the
> late-1980s about how Ward was spying for the Russians, it may
> well have been true - then again it may not. We can only take
> the word of what someone involved in it all says.

Ward was categorically not spying for the Russians. For one, he didn't have the temperament to be a spy ? he was a blabbermouth.

If she was
> still harbouring anger towards Ward over 20 years after he died
> then maybe it isn't true and she was just trying to blacken his
> name.

Watch the interview again and she says that she would be living with Ward if he were still alive so while she abandoned him (as did all his friends), she didn't hate him.

>
> According the film 'Scandal', which I've seen a number of
> times, M15 were having discussions with Stephen Ward - trying
> to get info from him about what was happening. They wouldn't be
> doing that surely unless they thought the chain of people,
> which had the Minister For War at one end and a Russian Naval
> Attache at the other end, might involve some risk to Britain's
> national security. According to the film, M15 abandoned Ward
> later on and this probably contributed to the decision he made
> to kill himself.

But the problem with that theory is there wasn't a chain. Keeler as she admits slept with Ivanov once (the night they met, after he drove her home from Cliveden) and the "affair" with Profumo was over by October/November 1961. Ward killed himself because he had been abandoned by his friends and was facing a certain prison term (for something that he didn't do ? pimping).

>
> Regarding the 'two bimbos being pimped by Ward', it should be
> obvious who I was talking about: one had the first name
> 'Christine' and the other had the first name 'Mandy'.

Yes, I assumed you were making that huge leap. Obvious but nonsense. Profumo never even met Mandy Rice-Davies let alone slept with her. She said in several interviews that she slept with just 10 men in two years so if Ward was pimping her (he wasn't), he wasn't doing a very good job of it. Savundra rented the spare room at Wimple Mews from Ward so he could have sex with MRD but Ward was never there and Mandy rarely gave him any money from her activities. Indeed, he gave her more money than she him.


>
> Mandy Rice-Davies and, possibly Christine Keeler, were also
> seeing other people like the odious slum landlord Peter
> Rackman, who although long dead is still notorious today,
> having owned large parts of Paddington and Notting Hill in the
> 1960s.

Mandy was seeing Rachman, Keeler wasn't. Keeler slept with Charles Clore.

>
> Regarding the issue of there possibly being a lot more to all
> of this, the chain of people involved: Profumo, Keeler,
> Rice-Davies, Ward and (I've just searched his name online)
> Yevgeny Ivanov, the Russian Naval Attache. As I said just now,
> M15 wouldn't have been talking to Ward unless there was a
> possible risk to national security - so was John Profumo a
> turncoat working for Russian intelligence?

NO. MI5 were supposedly trying to turn Ivanov. In any case, Ward wanting to show off approached MI5 ? his contact was Keith Wagstaffe ? not the other way round.

Who knows. There
> have been cases of other people deep in the heart of the
> British establishment who were revealed to be Russian spies
> years later.

Depends on what you mean by "the heart of the British establishment".

>
> On the issue of low-moralled politicians, this has been going
> on since the year dot and always will go on. They hardly ever
> see their wives as they work 17 hour days

Show me a politician who works a 17-hr day. The current lot are only at Westminster two and a half days a week because of the ridiculous Fixed Parliament Act and when Blair had a massive majority, most of his MPs were not in Westminster five days a week.

I don't know how I can make it clearer.

It was NOTHING to do with spying.

It WAS all to do with the establishment looking out to protect their own.

max_tranmere wrote:

> Some accounts of real life events may be accurate, some may
> not, but what are we supposed to believe about anything unless
> we believe the accounts of it that exist? EVERYTHING could be
> bullshit for all we know. I just looked up online what the film
> 'Scandal' was based on and it was apparently based on a book by
> someone called Anthony Summers called 'Honeytrap'. Are we not
> to believe anything?

Anthony Summers is a very well-respected investigative journalist. His most recent book is on Madeleine McCann. Other books include The File On The Tsar, Goddess, Sinatra, Richard Nixon and one on 9/11. He is a former producer on Panorama.

Scandal produced by Joe Boyd for Palace Pictures actually bought up a few books for the film.

If you're that interested read:
Honeytrap by Anthony Summers and Stephen Dorrill (not that one)
An Affair of State by Philip Knightley and Caroline Kennedy (not that one)
Scapegoat by Douglas Thompson
The Trial of Stephen Ward by Ludovic Kennedy
Bringing The House Down by David Profumo

Interesting letter in today's Guardian from Stephen Dorril (co-author of "Honeytrap").

Copied here.

It is wonderful how the establishment works. The truth of Mandy Rice-Davies?s allegations concerning Viscount Astor is questioned by her obituary writer Peter Stanford (20 December) ? but without mentioning the fact that he was the ghostwriter for Astor?s widow, Bronwen Pugh. The Guardian reviewer of the book wrote that Stanford was ?embarrassing? in his identification with Pugh and showed ?partisan snobbery? in his attack on people like Rice-Davies. I always found Mandy to be truthful when tested against the files and testimony from other participants in the scandal.

Stephen Dorril

University of Huddersfield



"It is wonderful how the establishment works."

My sentiments exactly!