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[quote]I think the wars in Iraq helped shape what's happening in Iraq today.[/quote]

I wouldn't argue with 'helped shape'. I agree. But that doesn't equate to 'our fault' or that this wouldn't have happened anyway (I mean, Saddam was going to die at some point and had 2 power hungry sons who were madder than he was which would have led to inevitable wars imho).

Lets be honest here, it's about religion again. Who do you think have been bombing all those Mosques this past 10 years with worshippers inside? Clue: it wasn't us.

[quote]When Tito (not the one in the Jacksons) went the whole region descended into chaos. Similar to Iraq.[/quote]

But Germany didn't fall into chaos when Hitler died. Nor Chile after Pinochet, Italy after Mussolini or Spain after Franco. Nor Serbia after Milosevic come to think. For every dictator you can point to, that was supposedly 'the lesser of evils', I can point to a dictator where getting shut did plenty of good.

Again, I come to subliminal racism. The Iraqis need a dictator to keep them under control but not European Germans or Spanish because we're better than that. It's good for the barbarians but us civilised folk deserve freedom no matter the cost.

Be honest: If Hitler won the war and run Britain impeccably with the lowest rates of crime and unemployment in the world, the best education and best public services anywhere, would living under such a dictatorship be worth it? Would it be the lesser of both evils to give in in 1939 and save millions of allied lives to appease him? Or is our freedom more important because we are more deserving that some middle eastern chaps? Freedom has always had to be fought for. It's never come cheap.

1. The illegal invasion of Iraq has been a disaster, in terms of Iraqi deaths directly or indirectly from that invasion.

2. Comparisons with Italy, Spain are irrelevant to the situation in Iraq.

3. The invasion based on an incorrect premise that Saddam had wmds with which he was about to threaten the west destroyed the control infrastructure within Iraq which allowed the sectarian chaos to flourish.

It was a disaster, just admit it.

An interesting point well made. Do we intervene/not intervene, damned if we do/don't.

Western Democracy will not prevail within these countries however much we would like it to do so. Western Politicians may have the peoples best intentions to be looked at but in the end, these countries have survived with territorial warlords and it will never change.

We cannot dictate our political agendas upon these countries and never will do. Sorry to be cynical but that is my thinking about it.

Another failed state since we decided we didn't like that nice colonel bloke with the dyed barnet and decided to help get rid of him.

Should we ever intervene in a sovereign state's affairs? Politicians must long for the days before twitter, Facebook and the internet when they thought that when there was a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, we could let them get on with it.

[quote]Another failed state since we decided we didn't like that nice colonel bloke with the dyed barnet and decided to help get rid of him.[/quote]

The Libyans got rid of him from what I remember.

[quote]Should we ever intervene in a sovereign state's affairs?[/quote]

That depends on the circumstances. But, yes. Especially if international laws are being routinely flouted, like Iraq. Which is why, despite what some people say, the war was legal........and that's why no one at the UN has even attempted to bring anyone to an international court for it.

[quote]Politicians must long for the days before twitter, Facebook and the internet when they thought that when there was a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, we could let them get on with it.[/quote]

It could also work the opposite way......in that people are more informed what's happening in other nations in real time. Imagine if there were thousands of tweets coming in from Kurds in the 80s as they were being gassed in their tens of thousands. We stood by and did nothing. That might have been different with social media.

"The Libyans got rid of him from what I remember."

This is a wonderful example of Stalinist truth are lies, lies are truth.

Nothing to do with the fact that the Allies bombed the fuck out of Libya?

"That depends on the circumstances. But, yes. Especially if international laws are being routinely flouted, like Iraq. Which is why, despite what some people say, the war was legal........and that's why no one at the UN has even attempted to bring anyone to an international court for it."

Are yes, the Coronation Street defence as I recall. When I can be bothered I will nail this one.