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Did I mention that they also helped old folks cross the road and those roads were incredibly straight?

David Johnson wrote:

There are some points you make that of course cannot be disputed BUT:


> What were New Labour's successes in government after 10 years.
>
> 1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s. - Possibly due to strong economy inherited from the Tories in 1997


> 2. Low mortgage rates. = Ditto

> 4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.----Does this include the useless PCSOs?

> 5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.----I would dispute that. Figures can be massaged and there are many reports of crimes either not being reported or changed so that a car break-in is not counted and that if there are several offences they are counted as one.


> 6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.
> 7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18. ----Utter nonsense. If this is true why has the CBI and bosses of Tesco and M&S complained that many school leavers are unemployable? Why have many university chancellors say that they have to give remedial literacy and numeracy lessons to new students? And presumably some members of this board were educated during the Blair era - the illiteracy here is often truly shocking.


> 8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled------Not that important if they cannot read and write properly.


> 9. Employment is at its highest level ever.---As it was in most of the developed world.


> 10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest
> countries.====But left by their own account more than a million children in poverty in this country.


> 11. 85,000 more nurses.
> 12. 32,000 more doctors.----And still more bureaucrats.


> 13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.----Not true - at least not when I was in hospital in 2009.


> 14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.
> 15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.----Not a benefit to the UK and we just end up paying more tax to support more (unnecessary) politicians and Spads.


> 17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.---And often wrong advice.


> 19. Restored city-wide government to London.---Definitely not something to boast about. We were told that the mayor and London Assembly would cost about about 3p a week so about ?2.50 a year. Last year I paid nearly ?400 and for what benefit?


> 20. Record number of students in higher education.---Yes, having dumbed down A Levels those degrees in media studies and fashion are so useful.


> 23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.---And what a disaster that has turned about to be.

> 25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.------Another waste of time. How much greenhouse gas did we contribute to the world? Less than 3%. What is the point when China and India are building power stations every day? What is the point of acting locally when the problem is global?


> 26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.---Like the Scottish and NI governments, a waste of money. And why hasn't either government closed the Scottish, Welsh and NI Offices in London?

> 29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.---Depends on your definition of poverty and not much use when many have to decide whether to eat or heat.


> 30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.---But apparently still poor.

> 31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.----Ah yes, but they could have eased the situation much more easily by lowering the tax threshold in the first place rather than Brown taxing the poor and then making them fill in forms to get their own money back. If you lower the tax threshold everyone benefits, if you make them fill in forms only the bureaucrats win.

> 32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.---But still siblings who live together are discriminated against when one dies.

> 35. Banned fox hunting. ----And put several hundred thousand farm workers out of a job.

> 38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.---Really? Haven't seen any fewer animal rights organisations.

> 40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.----In London that has been the case for years, pre-dating Labour.

> 42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.----And scrapped by Brown.

> 46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.---But still leaving Britons in poverty. Giving money to India when it has a space program and its own overseas aid budget is nothing short of obscene.


> 47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down
> by 50,000.---Depends on where you live.

> 48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.----Training and apprenticeships are all very well IF they lead somewhere.

Obviously I meant around ?1.50 a week for the London Assembly.

And Margaret Thatcher, John "Underpants outside his shirt" Major, Call Me Dave and Gideon have done what exactly to help those who depend on public sector services and haven't got their pockets stuffed with ?20 notes?

So you agree that much of what you claimed were New Labour successes were merely illusions?

No. A lot of your comments are matters of opinion about the effectiveness of the measures introduced. I can just as easily argue that it was way better than doing nothing etc etc. I dont think that they were illusions.

Now what did Thatcher, Major, Call Me Dave and George Osborne do for the people who haven't got their pockets stuffed with bundles of ?20 notes?

Please don't mention what everybody else on here mentions - selling off council houses. All that involved was the privatisation of social housing which has resulted in a staggering housing benefit bill as government transfers vast amounts of money from the taxpayer to the private landlords in order to support unemployed as well as employed people unable to afford huge private sector rents.

I wasn't going to - the sale of council houses like the privatisations of utilities was a short-term measure to raise money and gain popularity. Mrs Thatcher once boasted that there were more shareholders than trade unionists in Britain - not difficult when she made belonging to a trade union next to useless. But all of the companies are now owned by the same foreign interests, big businesses and people who would have bought shares anyway. Her dream of a shareholding class has ended in failure.

I voted Labour all my life until 2005 and have been sorely disappointed by their performance in office. Yes, they pumped more money into education and health (if not public transport) than ever before but did not put the mechanisms in place to ensure the money was spent wisely or well.

Trying to send 50% of the population is a ridiculous aim - and if not for that, there would have been no need to introduce tuition fees - something that every Labour MP who voted for that should hang their heads in shame.

As for what Mrs Thatcher et al did for this country - that's not the point. The Tories have always looked after their own. The whole idea behind Labour was that they would put the working class first. That's what I expected, hoped for every time I cast my ballot - and was disappointed every time.

The main policies of both parties are nearly identical as indeed are the front benches of both parties. All or nearly all Oxbridge types who have never had a proper job in their lives.

Essex Lad 3 - Johnson 0

- Eric

"As for what Mrs Thatcher et al did for this country - that's not the point"

What Thatcher, Major, Cameron did/are doing for this country is EXACTLY the point. Your view i.e. that all political parties are the same, is a typical, misguided view.

I have listed various achievements of the Labour government. Of course you can argue about whether they were completely effective, was it money well spent etc etc. Yet despite me challenging you three times you are totally unable to come up with any achievements of the Tories aimed at the less well off.

You merely say "The Tories have always looked after their own." Exactly. That is why in terms of detail, there are substantial differences between the parties in government. And that is the deciding factor, what parties ACTUALLY do in government. And things like the minimum wage, tax credits, child tax credits, Sure Start centres, disability benefits/equality, NHS substantial investment etc etc would never be introduced by the likes of Thatcher/Cameron et al.

I dont know if you have actually lived in the north of England. The impression you give me is that you are very much London/South east centric. I lived in London for a couple of years in the eighties and have spent most of my life in the North of England . The thing that is absolutely obvious is that London has as much in common with the North of England as New York has with the Louisiana swamps. It is a bubble.

If you had lived in the north you would realise that cities like Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle were incredibly rundown in the 80's and 90's. THese city centres were completely transformed during the Labour government years so that they became vibrant, exciting places with the Mersey seafront developments, the Salford Docks development with the Lowry etc and the Newcastle developments on the Tyne.

Now again you can argue whether this was money well spent but what is beyond question is that it gave a boost, an energy and a vibrancy to those areas.

Which is why I know beyond question if you asked the majority of people in the North do you think there is only a fag paper difference between the Tories and Labour they would look at you as if you were completely bonkers. They have lived through that difference and that is why the Tories as a political force in the north hardly exist at all.