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My apologies for the rant chaps. I do appreciate you both mean well. I just dont see what good it will come to.

The police have proved ineffective when I was burgled last November and had my car stolen despite CCTV at the top of the road and my car being parked up at the local park for 2 weeks after. Didnt stop the local council sending me bills for the maximum amount of fines a month later totalling a thousand pounds despite the having to get my details from DVLA they couldve given me the heads up if they paused to think.

The United States government and British intelligence couldnt find Osama Bin Laden in 10 years I have every faith with this surveillance in place they powers that be will remain utterly ineffective and useless.

Theyre just going to employ a lot of people to listen in on a lot of people talking about Big Brother, Katie Price and football scores...Oh and me ranting on about how useless they all are....Yawn!

"I think signing petitions is arse out now"

Well, its horses for courses. Most of the current cabinet are millionaires. Millionaires tend not to respond too well to "chaps causing a rumpus. It's not the done thing, don't you know".

If you look at the legislation that has been dropped or changed e.g. sell-off of the nations' forests, planning law changes to allow almost unfettered rights to property developers, aspects of the Health and Social Care bill and welfare benefit reforms, it was organisations like the National Trust with its middle class membership forking out ?50 a year to look at stately homes and 38 degrees, the organisation featured by Andy, that were at the forefront of opposition including petitions.

"Get your big boots on and tromp down there and bust some doors open, turn over tables, have a mass meltdown. Get naked and pound the pavements with your bare fists!"

Hardly a revolutionary call to arms in the summer riots - "Whadda we want, we want free leisurewear!" And a lot of people ended up with 1 year plus inside. An expensive price to pay for a pair of trainers.

"When has the government under any administration given into public pressure on anything?"

This coalition government on
1. the Health and Social Care bill
2. an attempt to remove free milk for the under fives.
3. sections of the welfare benefits bill.
4. Gove having to backtrack on removing dedicated funding for school sports.
5. plans to privatise the nation's forests.
6. the worst excesses of the planning bill.
7. the abandonment of Ken Clarke's plans to increase the discount for guilty pleas.

etc etc.

As we say in Blackpool, vive la resistance, vive la petition!

Well put David but I fear not this time on the surveillance issue.

As always , I don't mind being proved wrong on that one.

I still stand by what I said about the getting the boots on because if it wasn't for the opportunist looting that was going on, the riots may have stayed on topic so that the media could see what they were mad about.

I've interviewed two community leaders who were there the night it happened who remember quite clearly when people started taking advantage of the situation for their own benefit.

The police telling everyone to go home and bringing the barriers down on the station was like slamming the door in the face of the family who wanted answers about their son being shot.

If he was my friend or relation and I did time for that night disturbing the peace I don't think I would regret it for a second. The IPCC have stated they are not going to investigate the matter further so it looks like its perfectly ok for the police to shoot people dead then.

I see that as a worthy cause for doing time. When the system fails you or is stacked against you it doesnt leave you with many options. If we look at Doreen Lawrence then I dont think many people would have that patience like she did waiting for 18 years.

I'm not saying its right to act that way. I just understand the frustration of those let down by the system.

Just don't do it to them or you'll have an army of them looking for blood or stitch up the nearest face that fits to get closure

Agree with OEJ and dont forget once you put your postcode in they know your address

one eyed jack wrote:

> Theyre just going to employ a lot of people to listen in on a
> lot of people talking about Big Brother, Katie Price and
> football scores...

Ministers have said that neither the police nor intelligence agencies will be getting any extra staff for this, so therefore no they aren't going to employ a lot of people or even anyone at all.

Hi,
We are talking about two different things.

You are talking about the specifics of the Tottenham riots which were inextricably linked to the death of Mark Duggan. Whether the Tottenham riots had any effect whatsoever on how the police and the IPCC have dealt with the subsequent investigation is questionable. In November 2011, two community activists who were appointed to liaise with the IPCC, resigned from those posts. A third remained in post. One of those who left said that the IPCC work was "shoddy". The inquiry is still dragging on.

However the riots took place in a whole host of different places such as in Hackney, Brixton, Chingford, Peckham, Enfield, Croydon, Ealing and East Ham, city centre of London, other cities in England including Bristol, Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool, etc etc which had nothing to do with the death of Mark Duggan.

And for a lot of the kids who took part in the riots outside Tottenham, I don't see anything different now for them, other than a significant proportion have got a new or enhanced criminal record.

Over 80,000 signatories so far, so the spooks will have their work cut out for them snooping on that lot!!laugh!

Its a pity the secret lobbyists behind this appalling measure remain unknown and unaccountable, whilst those opposing it are there for all to see, but sometimes you have to stand up and be counted.

I believe it is the Secret Service with encouragement from the CIA who want to bring us all into line!

You win the cigar, though the US involvement is more in the other disgraceful move by the coalition; the secrecy that will at ministerial, not judicial, discretion allow more court and inquest cases to be held in secret. So next time some US top-gun hot-shot casually blasts a British tank and kills the occupants, we and the families will never find out the truth.