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To be fair their weren't many warts were there ? Both McCartney and Olivia H alluded to George being a ladies man. Coming from his wife the implication seemed to be that he'd been unfaithful which would be a wart of sorts, however it was somewhat skirted around.

I do wonder if the Beatles would have carried on for another few years had it not been for the fact they disliked touring, and never did again after 1966, and for Allen Klein becoming their manager. The latter happening put a real strain on the relationship between Lennon and McCartney.

(Max is back, I've been on holiday but have now returned).

The only thing worse than a "The Beatles invented music fan" is an MG cars fan....what about soul, jazz, classical and blues??

Those are genres...i'm not sure i pointed it out exactly, but i explicitly mentioned pop/rock music. Of course there are totally other seperate genres that The Beatles had no impact on whatsoever. And also genres like RnB and the Blues had a profound impact on The Beatles and the shape on their music. No one is denying that!

George was never 'Paul's Lackey' nor did 'he do what he was told'. George was the first Beatle to want out of the group dynamic, threatining to quit the band in 1966 and only stayed after much persuasion from the others and Brian Epstein that there would be no more touring. After there was no more touring it is true that Paul took over leadership of the group somewhat, in that he organised all sessions and focused the group on which directions to follow album wise. At this point they started to record "Sgt.Pepper" which George didn't like and showed particular disinterest during the recording of which. He only offered one track to the album "Within You Without You" now rightly regarded as a classic, it failed to ignite the others imagination at the time. And was treated as somewhat derisory by George Martin at the time. None of the other Beatles appeared on it. And it was regarded as a 'blot' on a "Classic" LP at the time. George was still disgruntled with the group at this time. And Lennon was in a haze and his brain totally addled by his LSD consumption and the break-up of his marriage.

George turned to Mysticism and Indian Spirituality. Getting the group involved with the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. At this point Brian Epstein died and Lennon declared "thats it were finished, we've had" and Harrison again let it be known his intention to leave. At this point McCartney took charge again and thrust the group head-on into The Magical Mystery Tour project. Starting off with Lennon's "I Am The Walrus" which was a calculated decision on the part of McCartney so as not to let Lennon brood. The group were very fractious around this time. And by the time of "The White Album" were recording seperately. Sometimes having 3 studios in use at the one time with Lennon in one, McCartney in another and Harrison in another. It was right at this point that Ringo left tha band - though i'm not sure it can be classed as an "official" leaving of the group, as he only went on holiday to Sardinia for 2 weeks (it was on this holiday that he wrote Octopus' Garden). This was in 1968 and not in 1967 as Starr incorrectly stated on the George Harrison documentary. In his absence The Beatles pushed on recording without him, recording Back In The USSR, Dear Prudence, Wild Honey Pie and Mother Nature's Son with McCartney on the drums in place of Starr.

George then "quit" the band in 1969 during the ill-fated "Get Back" project in a fight with McCartney over a guitar part. This i'm guessing is where your thinking comes in regarding George being ordered around by Paul and just doing as he was told. This had been a McCartney trait as far back as 1965 with Paul ordering George and John what to play on the tracks he composed and everything that they played had to be "Just So" how McCartney wanted it. Tensions got so bad that McCartney and Lennon came to blows and George Martins trusted engineer Norman Smith left, never to return. And went on to produce his psychedelic protegees "The Pink Floyd". By 1966 with Lennon in the throes of his LSD obsession, he just did whatever McCartney pleased with no question, because he was in no state to argue. Which left McCartney to seem to pick on George by having him play "just so". As Lennon and Harrison have said, McCartney was "like a school master". McCartney says he was just trying to make the group "As good as they could be". With Lennon off of LSD by 1968 and into his relationship with Yoko Ono, his biting and aggresive personality had returned and he bagan arguing strongly with McCartney again. This again led to tension, frosty atmoshphere and alleged punch-up's. Which again led to George Martin's engineer Geoff Emerick leaving and being replaced with Ken Scott.

As McCartney was arguing with Harrison about his playing on a song "I've Got A Feeling" which can be clearly seen in the "Let it Be" film, the "Anthology" film and in the George Harrison documentary, George tells him "Look Paul, i'll play whatever you want me to play. Or whatever will please you. I won't play on it at all Paul if that's what will please you? Whatever will please you that's what i'll do". After that he left the group and went straight home and wrote "Wah-Wah" allegedly about McCartney. He stayed away for 2 weeks and refused to attend Apple meetings. He only agreed to come back, if they stopped filming in Twickenham, moved to the Apple studio's, agreed to let Billy Preston play with them, and scrap all plans for a live show to end the film. After all the others agreed, he returned. An contributed the song "I, Me, Mine" to the album, again allegedly about McCartney. In 1969 Lennon then left the band, only to be persuaded to return. Then Lennon, Harrison and Starr all signed with Allen Klein, with McCartney refusing. Again they got back together and recorded "Abbey Road" only for Lennon to seemingly end the group again by creating "The Plastic Ono Band". But Lennon said he was persuaded by Klein not to announce any break-up. Much to his later regret.

In the end McCartney officially ended the group when he heard that Harrison and Lennon had given "The Get Back" tapes to Phil Spector to reproduce without his knowledge and adding a 36 piece orchestra to his composition "The Long And Winding Road" without telling him. McCartney immediately left the group and reported to the press that The Beatles were over!

"To be fair their weren't many warts were there ? Both McCartney and Olivia H alluded to George being a ladies man."

Yeah I agree. What I meant was that there wasn't any attempt to mythologise him as some kind of saint. Klaus Voormann talked about his drug problem and in particular, coke use. And as you say McCartney and his wife Olivia commented on his womanising.

I liked Olivia's line "What's the secret of staying married? Not getting divorced!"

CHeers
D

Any prog that can teach whoever about such a bunch of geniuses like the Beatles, Stones, Who, Floyd etc can only be good in my books. My old neighbour used to deliver a lot of antique furniture to George during his last few months alive and actually the week after he had returned from hospital after being stabbed. He said he was just a charming, nice normal bloke really.

Whoa Whoa Whoa! hold up a minute! I completely concur the Beatles are the best popular beat combo ever, and they should be placed on a pedestal eight miles higher than my second favourite aretists, The Byrds, but what the fuck is wrong with those who appreciate Morris Garages(MG) automobiles!!!??? (PP, owner of perhaps the world's finest 1973 Daimler Double - Six SWB; 145mph top speed and - definitively - at 12MPG the fastest full four seater in world at time of production)?

It wasn't me who said there was anything wrong with MG cars or MG owners that was Mr Arginald Valleywater!

Meatus, I am impressed with how much you know about the Beatles. Certainly more than I do. I have read a few things about them and seen a few documentaries (as most people have). One thing I recall hearing is that McCartney released his first, and self-titled, solo album the very same day as The Beatles' last album. Is that correct? Also, from a lot of what you say in your comment there, George did seem to be 'Paul's lackey' during the final stages of the band. I also remember reading once that Paul and George had almost nothing to do with each other from then on - only meeting again sometime in the 1980's, 15 years later. John and George however were still in touch and still collaborating, there is film of George in the studio with John in the 1970's. Another thing that has come to my mind was how, after Epstein died and Paul took over the management of the band (this is presumabely in the gap between Epstein and Allen Klein managing them) John said of Paul, something like: "we were previously going in a straight line, now we are going round in circles". I remember the issue of Paul being very against Allen Klein managing them - and later on John seemed to come round to the view that Paul had been right all along. John later referred to Allen Klein as "smelling like an alley cat...". Allen Klein, of course, also managed The Rolling Stones and within a few years the Stones' financial affairs were in such a terrible mess they had to leave Britain and go and live in France. There is a lot on this in Bill Wyman's autobiography "Stone Alone", which I have read.

To be fair to McCartney in the docu Ringo said something like 'We've got Paul to thank for the number of albums that were made after we stopped touring'.

The implication was that Paul's work ethic was greater than that of John, George and Ringo (or that he allowed himself fewer distractions) and he would cajole the others into putting time in at the studio.

This isn't a defence of how Macca conducted himself in general terms, but there are good points to him also, this being an example.