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Welcome on the path of enlightment Mr Thring!!wink!

Ms Liz and I were just talking about this yesterday. The only thing I would really query would be the accuracy of both planes hitting the seperate towers, presumably after the first one went in the smoke and dust rising must have obscured the second target, and yet we know two planes hit both towers, strange, but the degree of Pilot accuracy must have been extrordinary, and when you consider they were not trained commercial pilots, it does seem...er, strange, the towers droped like Fred Dibnah had been on the case.

"presumably after the first one went in the smoke and dust rising must have obscured the second target,"

No it didn't, as you can see below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XELamUnF0EU

"it does seem...er, strange, the towers droped like Fred Dibnah had been on the case."

The link below answers your point

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/01 ... -0112.html

Cheers
D

If you look at the 9/11disaster as a crime scene and forget about "Official versions" etc it then starts to all look a little murky. The first question in any crime that the police ask is, "What was the motive?" and/ or "Who benefitted?". OK so here we have the accuse, "Crazed, Muslim Madman", Osama Bin Laden, intent on World domination at any price, so crazy that he doesn't even ADMIT to organising the worst terrorist act in history. He might have said, he was "pleased" but he NEVER admitted to it. The Americans used some dodgy translations of his videos to make out that he HAD admitted it, but these translations were debunked by Arabic scholars.

So if you don't admit your heinous act, it defeats the whole point of being a terrorist. If you are a member of the IRA you blow something up because you want the British out and re-unification of Ireland. If you are in the PLO or Hammas, you want Palestine rid of the Israelis and if you are Osama Bin Laden, err you want what? You want to bring down the Twin Towers, kill thousands and then???hide under the bed? It's a bit like running up to sleeping Rotweiller, screaming, "Death to the Infidel" bashing him on the head with a broom handle and then running away only to be ripped limb from limb??..in other words totally pointless!

This is why the Arabs have been "Demonised", because if you thought of them as sane, objective and calm, you too would question the motives of 9/11. However as Arabs have been painted as maniacs intent on murdering us all in our sleep and with, Abu Hamsa standing there with his hook, you can hardly blame us for being fearful and naturally you immediately believe the official version of 9/11, ie a maniac doesn't need a motive to commit a crime. Osama Bin Laden would have known there would be absolutely no benefit whatsoever perpetrating 9/11, for his people. He was an intelligent man, he would have known that America would have immediately launched a full scale attack on the Middle East and permanently occupied it. So all in all, Osama had neither a motive nor did he gain any benefit for his people.

So if Osama didn't benefit, who did? That of course is the big question and you must look into the future to see the answer. Ever since the OPEC oil embargo of 1973, the West has been mindful of how vulnerable we all are to the Middle East simply turning on and off our oil as they please. But what to do? we couldn't just invade and steal it, mainly because most of the Middle East had allied themselves with the USSR who would have simply nuked us if we'd tried to invade with some flimsy excuse. With the end of the Cold war however, the Russian threat diminished and so we found ourselves with a possible window for attacking the Middle East under some pretext and placing a permanent occupying army somewhere as a permanent warning to the Arabs, "To not fuck with us".

In a way our governments were thinking the "Unthinkable", ie what would happen if the oil supply stopped, dead? This is what we expect our governments to do, hope for the best and plan for the worst. What would we have said in say 10 years time when our cars stopped, hospital incubators stopped, no electricity in our houses, all because the Arabs, had cut off our supplies of oil? This is what we would have said, "We don't give a fuck how you get it, JUST GET IT!" So this was the predicament the West, lead by the USA faced, "What the fuck are we going to do?"

After all from a Western/ Christian perspective, why the fuck SHOULD the Arabs have their hands on all all that oil? All they do is live in tents, they don't actually manufacture ANYTHING, they just sit there and dish out their black gold to who they choose, it just ain't fair! So cue 9/11. It had to be the biggest, most glamourous, most iconic act of terrorism of all time. It had to be so outrageous that there would be NO QUESTION at all about, 1/ Who had perpetrated the act, 2/ How we were going to retaliate. Well the answer to (1) was patsy, Arab Madman Osama Bin Laden and (2) All out war on anyone we chose in the Middle East. It didn't really matter who, Iraq was a good choice because since Desert Storm the whole country had been bled dry and was crawling on it's knees. Just needed our "Tone" to add the gem regarding, "Weapons of mass destruction", (Bet George Dubta loved this) and we were away.

So the Yanks and all the rest of the West had a triple whammy, firstly we had a new bogey man to scare us, secondly, we have now secured or at least protected the oil supplies being fucked about with and thirdly, the "Big cheeses" are making $Billions of dollars for the military/ industrial complex, not to mention the millions of barrels of oil almost certainly diverted, "Off the books" for all the crooked sheisters who descended on Iraq like a swarm of locusts. So all in all the score, in terms of "Benefits" I believe so far is:

Osamba Bin Laden : 0
The Western Allies : 72

The question you must ask is whether 9/11 howsoever caused was a necessary act to protect our way of life and if so it a case of, "The end justifies the means." To me it's just nice knowing the REAL reasons it all played out.I don't like being hoodwinked by people like Bush & Blair. In my opinion, in any court of law, Osama and the Arab people, would be found "Not guilty" through lack of evidence.

Since I am far from paranoid and believe that there are two sides to
any argument, especially one now historical, I did indeed read the
debunkers as well as the conspiracy theorists...
I drew attention to just 2 strange but rather glaring facts in my last
blog - a) several hundred eminent American arhitects, worried by the
fire risk implications, have grave doubts about WTC 7 and its collapse
b) odd that a building with regional headquarters of the FBI, rescue
service and the shady CIA collapsed so neatly that same day, especially
when hawks in the US Govt had suggested just such a scenario as an
excuse to re-shape the Middle East and get that lovely lovely oil !!!
MY end comment remains unchanged my dear David....keep an open
mind because its all rather fishy....
And in the space provided one could draw on a whole host of other
facts that can be "debunked" independently, one by one, but as a
total package leave one wondering !
Nearer to home, my old buddy Mr Slip and I would not see eye to eye on
the London attacks (after much reading lately the evidence for a secret
Govt inspired UK attack seems at best circumstantial and at worst utter
balderdash).....yet Dr David Kelly`s death bothers me rather more, not
least that the Govt inquiry had hugely less powers than a normal
inquest and no one appearing before it was breaking the law if he lied.
Neat huh !
I assume, David, you also subscribe to the lone gunman theory in Dallas.
Best to believe in magic bullets !

> Still I think that plenty of muslims living in this country
> have a better understanding of what we are like as people
> compared to those in their own country who, like the americans,
> know no better and continue to see us in the west as their
> mortal enemies
>
>

The July 7 bombers were all Muslims brought up or born in this country.
This is the same race of people who circumcise young women so they don`t get pleasure from sex and therefore don`t fuck around. If you can kill your own daughter because she`s in love with someone from another race or religion you`re a fucking savage regardless of your colour or religion.
They call us infidels and yet the internets fucking crawling with arabs chasing little girls in chatrooms.
Fuck em! And fuck sending aid to these backwater shitholes like Somalia and Ethiopia only.

I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't two sides in any discussion.

I think the links I provided successfully debunk the mythologisers, including the two points that you raise.

I do find the concept that the US Secret Services should engineer the deaths of thousands of their own citizens in order to support an invasion of oil rich countries a tad unlikely.

Does Afghanistan have much oil?

Secondly, as a historian, has an attack on its own citizens always been required before the US attacked foreign countries?

Err, I don't think so. I would have thought an attack on its own citizens has probably been the exception rather than the rule for a US military adventure.

As for the lone gunman theory, I have no idea.

Cheers
D

jimslip wrote:

> Hitlers best PR pal Joseph Goebbels would be proud at the
> techniques of how the West is slowly but surely demonising the
> Arab people.

Congratulations, Jim, for managing to lose the argument in the first post of a thread.

Always remember Godwin's law on internet forums...

I read the link, and not one mention of Fred anywhere, thas summat wrong somewhere.

So guys, let me just check my understanding of the arguments here.

The US government/Security forces engineered an attack on US soil. Not satisfied with hijacking two commercial airliners and flying them into the Twin Towers, they decided that this was nowhere near big enough. So for good measure, they also launched a commercial airliner at the Pentagon and a fourth airliner which got brought down short of it's target.

THousands of American citizens died in the Twin Towers and at the Pentagon. THe purpose of this US government/Security forces plot was to demonise Osama Bin Laden and Arabs in general, in order to justify the invasion of Arab countries to safeguard the oil supply.

Have I got this right so far?

So shortly after committing this horrendous act, the US invaded not Kuwait, not Saudi Arabia, not Iran, not UAE, but Afghanistan, one of the most difficult countries in the world to defeat and hold (ask the Russians) and spent the next 11 years knee deep in dust, bullets and IEDs.

Afghanistan has no oil.

Got any conspiracy theory for that?

Cheers
D