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Dizzy, you make some interesting points but it was Gordon Brown who, as Chancellor, made the Bank Of England independant and it was said that many senior people in Whitewall were wishing that central government had more influence over the BOE when the recent crisis started. Him making them so distant and remote from government and allowing them to do as they pleased is viewed as a mistake in some quarters. Had central government been able to have input into what the BOE was doing it is said the recent crisis may not have been as bad as it has been.

Be Seen Here. You are knowledgeable about all this, some interesting points there.

Be Seen Here, there is no inverse snobbery about any of it. I went through the public school system myself and I am (I suppose) what many would call 'middle class'. I come from a traditional Tory voting family and I used to vote for them aswell - including in the 1992 Election. I would have voted for them in 1987 had I been old enough. I, and the rest of my family, just like millions of others, got very disillusioned with them in the 1990's. I was still pro-Tory in 1992 as they had a new leader (had been there 2 years) and I thought we could trust him for another 5. He proved very much that he was the son of Thatcher with his clever hood-winking campaign which the public fell for. As I said earlier, in hindsight I think Kinnock and Labour would have been better for the 92-97 term. Lastly, you can not deny that the Tory Party is now largely a load of titled Etonian toffs - just like it was in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. It was quite nice that from Heath to Thatcher to Major the party was led by, and largely made up of, people who had come from more ordinary backgrounds. Now it is back to how it used to be.

We might as well be discussing the local council for all the difference any of these people mentioned actually make.

It's a good thing to be disillusioned. It means you are nearer to reality and have let go of the illusions you held onto in the face of evidence to the contrary.

So, having lost your illusions about the Conservatives, when are you going to drop the ones you have about New Labour?

You don't think Blair, Brown, and all the others are careerists? Christ, Brown's friend Alan Greenspan is an unrepentant disciple of Ayn Rand - and a more free-market weak-to-the-wall privateer than her simply does not exist.

Greenspan's (and Brown's) "light-touch" regulation allowed the bankers to be reckless, and Greenspan's (and Brown's) influence and decisions to bail them out is what saddled Britain with such unsustainable debt - to the fucking banks. The Labour party itself is bankrupt, and it is bank loans and dodgy donors that have kept it afloat - not freely given donations by trade unionists.

From the moment the Irish vote Yes to ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, it is the regional government network that will really be running Britain, not the clowns (and probably Esther Rantzen) in Westminster.

I feel somewhat like one of those guys with placards saying "the end of the world is nigh", but how can you imagine that the subjective views of Labour politicians ("I'm a pretty straight kinda guy" T BLAIR) will stop them doing bad things (Like lying to take us into the Iraq war)?

The instincts of Labourist politicians has always been to manage (nowadays they say regulate) capitalism. Even when many working-class people wanted to overthrow it, you could always rely on Labour to betray their idealism and spike their guns.

That's even before ideological feminism and environmental gloom began to spread throughout the party. Today, its policies are wrong on everything, because it isn't radical enough to challenge the dominant liberal/capitalist ethos.

So given a choice between Labour and Conservative, I would suggest that that is no choice at all. They are all ignorant careerists who believe in regulated capitalism. I don't.

i have 16 poles live next door... not one of them fought in WW2 (joke)... They a nice bunch-have no prob if they work and pay taxes and enter the uk legally...And matey needs tax his car as if he ever in an accident,who foots the bill? xx

They are certainly career-ists. Look at Brown with his policy of only permitting the public to vote if they were going to vote for him.

"Thinnnnnnngs, can only get Betterrrrrrrr,can only get Betterrrrrrrr.." etc....

Theres alot of liars in politics,no doubt......But im for anyone that can run uk PLC as a company, and a profitable one at that..Maybe labour WILL get it right in the next 12yrs....or maybe they never will and we need to accept that... Im all for Trevor kavannagh as a voice worth listening to- he always seems to give it straight........ ..

Hi
For those on this forum who get excited at the memory of the Thatcher years, do us all a favour and read the list below of measures introduced by the Labour Party, many, like the minimum wage, opposed vehemently by the Conservatives.
The task is to provide a list of all the marvellous policies of Thatcher and co, together with those promised by Cameron re. what the ill, poor, disabled etc can look forward to in the new dawn of a Conservative government.
I look forward to your lists. I dont want to get into any endless arguing about this list below. You may agree with aspects of the list, you may not. However the laws included have actually been passed. I just want a list of the acts introduced by Thatcher and why they were such a benefit?
Cheers
David

WINTER FUEL ALLOWANCE
Derek Heaps, 76, from Castle Donington, Derby
"Before the winter fuel allowance was introduced my wife Valerie and I would worry ourselves through the winter months. I have a type of leukaemia that thins my blood, so it's important to stay warm, but we were having to think before putting the heating on because it cost so much."

THE DISABILTY DISCRIMINATION ACT
Rick Williams, 58, a business consultant from Brighton, is blind "In my view the Disability Discrimination Act is one of the most powerful pieces of disability legislation ever passed.

What the Act does, for the first time, is put my needs at the centre of the way public bodies do things, not me try to fit in with what they want. It is one of the best things Labour has done and it will improve the life of every disabled person in Britain."

BAN ON CLUSTER BOMBS
Thomas Nash, Cluster Munition Coalition.

"The ban on cluster bombs in 2008 is the most significant achievement in humanitarian and disarmament affairs in a decade. Gordon Brown's decision to place humanitarian imperatives over short-term military interests was a deciding factor in securing the global ban."


THE MINIMUM WAGE
Stuart Barrett, 37, administrator from Brighton "I'll never forget how Labour stood up for workers like me, who, before 1999, were paid as low a wage as employers wanted to give us, which for me at one point was just ?2 an hour. When the minimum wage was introduced, the difference it made to my life was immense. I was able to save and plan for the future. I have even managed to save the fees for a university course."


MATERNITY PAY
Pam Lacey, Chair of the Association of Breastfeeding Mothers "Increasing paid maternity leave is one of the best things Labour has done for families.

There are many documented benefits of mothers spending more time with their children when they are very young."

PEACE IN NORTHERN IRELAND
Peter Sheridan, former Assistant Chief Constable of Northern Ireland Police Service, now CEO of charity Cooperation Ireland. "Without Labour's commitment to peace, the last 10 years would have seen many more deaths and a lot more violence.

We're in the situation we find ourselves in today because of Tony Blair's personal effort and energy. And I believe Gordon Brown is just as committed to finishing the work, underpinning the political settlement by ending sectarianism once and for all."

RECORD RESULTS IN SCHOOLS
Chris Keates, General Secretary NASUWT "Labour have put unprecedented investment into education.

They have transformed school buildings and allowed teachers and headteachers to focus on teaching.

There are now thousands more support staff and a raft of measures on discipline has supported teachers."

MORE STUDENTS THAN EVER
Wes Streeting, 26, NUS President "The school I attended under a Tory Government went into special measures. I think people forget how bad things were. Even as kids, we got the sense that we were not well served. I'm one of the many people that have benefited from the government's commitment to expanding the number of university places. When you look at the last 10 years, the way Labour have improved education is one of the best things they have achieved."

PATERNITY LEAVE
Edward Davie, 34, South London "My daughter Julie was born in July last year and I got to be around for the first moments and days of her life and that will stand her in good stead for the rest of her life."


THE TREBLING OF AID
El Khidir Daloum, Save the Children Regional Director, Latin America, Middle East & South East Europe "I have seen children who are in schools in Save the Children programmes who wouldn't have had the chance of an education, were it not for that increase in aid. And I've sat and talked with children who wouldn't be alive today, if it weren't for that help."

THE CANCELLING OF DEBT
Danny Smith, Jubilee Campaign "In the last 12 years, Labour has made huge steps forward towards the goal of making poverty history, much more than I believe the Tories would have if they had been in power. I believe that many thousands of children in the world's poorest countries have had the chance to live because of what Labour has done."

CIVIL PARTNERSHIPS
Paul Burston, 44, lesbian and gay editor of Time Out magazine "I never imagined in my wildest dreams that civil partnerships would one day become a reality. It always frustrated me that gay and lesbian couples didn't have the same rights and privileges as straight couples. But in September 2007 I 'married' my partner Paulo."

THE CREATION OF SURESTART
Michelle Holland, 33, North Anston "I take my daughter to the Surestart Centre in Kiveton Park, Sheffield. The centre opened in March and is purpose-built with plenty of equipment for the children. The staff are very supportive and there's great advice for first-time mums, like me. I only wish more people knew about the great things Labour have done for childcare."

SHORTEST WAITING TIMES IN NHS HISTORY
Michael Summers, vice chair of the Patients' Association "The Government have done a lot of good and things have improved. Most people know that waiting times are now around four hours, which is a great achievement. More needs to be done, but we appreciate that Labour are working hard to make things better."

DEVOLUTION
Huw Lewis, Welsh Assembly member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney "Thanks to devolution the country has much more confidence. Even the doubters have to admit now people are talking about a distinctive Welsh future in a way they never did before."

THE CANCER GUARANTEE
Michael Summers, vice chair of the Patients' Association "We appreciate that the Government has been concentrating on improving waiting times for cancer patients from diagnosis to surgery."

HALF A MILLION CHILDREN OUT OF POVERTY
Kate Green, chief executive, Child Poverty Action Group "Today, half a million fewer children are in poverty than in 1999. That's not happened by accident, it's the result of determination and investment. The Government should be congratulated on all it has achieved so far."

CHILD BENEFIT AT RECORD LEVELS
Belinda Phipps, chief executive of the National Childbirth Trust "Financial support for parents has steadily increased since Labour came to power. This is good news since it helps to relieve the financial pressure on parents when starting a family."

THE SOCIAL CHAPTER
Tuc General Secretary Brendan Barber "Joining Europe's Social Chapter was a great deal for everyone at work, with new rights for parents, time off for holidays, consultation before redundancy, and better protection against unfair discrimination. Without these European rights adopted by Labour, Britain would be a worse place to work."

THE FIRST CLIMATE CHANGE ACT
Mike Childs, Head of Climate Change at Friends of the Earth "The Climate Change Act makes the UK the first country in the world to have a national law limiting its carbon dioxide emissions. More importantly, it's in line with what science says we need to do to prevent dangerous climate change."

CRIME DOWN BY A THIRD
Spokesman for the Police Federation "There's more prosperity in the country, so there's less need for crime. We're especially grateful to have seen the number of police officers increase under Labour."